1 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF JUSTICE PROGRAMS REVIEW PANEL ON PRISON RAPE HEARINGS ON RAPE AND STAFF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT IN U.S. JAILS SOUTHEASTERN OHIO REGIONAL JAIL Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:00 a.m - 4:45 p.m. -- REVISED COPY -- U.S. Department of Justice Office of Justice Programs Building 810 7th Street, N.W. Main Conference Room Third Floor Washington, D.C. Diversified Reporting Services, Inc. (202) 467-9200 2 PARTICIPANTS: Review Panel Members: Steve McFarland, Director Task Force for Faith-Based and Community Initiatives U.S. Department of Justice Carroll Ann Ellis, Director Fairfax County, Virginia Police Department Victim Services Gwendolyn Chunn, Executive Director (retired) Juvenile Justice Institute, Center for Criminal Justice Research and International Initiatives Department of Criminal Justice North Carolina Central University WITNESSES: James Conrath, Administrative Assistant, Investigator Rebecca Easterling, Midnight Shift Commander James Eddy, Chief of Security Lisa Rhodes, Nursing Supervisor Jeremy Tolson, Warden Joshua VanBibber, Fill-in Officer In Charge Matt Zartman, Afternoon Shift Commander 3 C O N T E N T S PAGE Introductory Remarks 4 Steve McFarland Panel 1 7 Sergeant Rebecca Easterling, Midnight Shift Commander Sergeant Matt Zartman, Afternoon Shift Commander Panel 2 146 Lisa Rhodes, Nursing Supervisor James Conrath, Administrative Assistant, Investigator Lunch Break 196 Panel 3 197 James Eddy, Chief of Security Joshua VanBibber, Fill-in Officer In Charge Panel 4 268 Jeremy Tolson, Warden 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay, we're going to get 3 started. This is another public hearing of the review 4 panel on prison rape, pursuant to the Prison Rape 5 Elimination Act of 2003. My name is Steve McFarland, 6 I'm a member of the panel. 7 Joining to me, to my left, is Ms. Carroll Ann 8 Ellis, who is the director of victim services division 9 of the Fairfax County Police Department, one of the 10 largest in the country. And, to my right, is Gwendolyn 11 Chunn, who is the past president of the American 12 Correctional Association, with an extensive career in 13 corrections, particularly juvenile corrections. 14 The purpose of this hearing is not -- it's not 15 a criminal prosecution, it's not an inquisition, it's a 16 fact-finding hearing to ascertain the characteristics 17 of sexual predators in jails, sexual assault victims in 18 jails, and the characteristics of those facilities who, 19 based on the national inmate survey last year, are 20 identified as having among the highest prevalence of 21 sexual assault in their facility, and those that have 22 the lowest. 5 1 We heard from one of the latter yesterday, 2 from the northwest part of Ohio. And this morning, 3 today, we will be talking with the southeast Ohio 4 regional jail. 5 This hearing is based upon the rankings of 6 several hundred jails -- 282, to be exact -- which 7 were -- which participated in a survey by the Bureau of 8 Justice Statistics in the Department of Justice last 9 year, between April and December. The results indicate 10 that the facility that we will be addressing today 11 has -- had a percentage of inmates reporting some form 12 of sexual victimization almost three times the national 13 average. 14 The facility specifically shows up in -- as 15 one of the facilities with the highest percent 16 reporting non-consensual sexual acts, including 17 allegations of unwanted contacts with another inmate, 18 any contacts with staff that involved oral, anal, and 19 vaginal penetration, hand jobs, and other sexual acts. 20 This facility also rated -- was one of the highest, 21 whether it reported non-consensual sexual acts or 22 abusive sexual contacts, which does not -- that 6 1 category does not include allegations of willing sexual 2 contacts with staff. And I might note that there is no 3 such thing as consensual acts with staff in an 4 incarcerated setting. And this facility also rated 5 among the top five in the country with the highest 6 percent reporting any form of sexual victimization. 7 So, this is a matter for -- in which we're 8 trying to explore what isn't being done, or is being 9 done and could be done differently. And the purpose, 10 again, is not for fixing blame, but for being able to 11 identify to the Department and to those who will be 12 recommending national standards to the next attorney 13 general, what -- how things can be improved, and what 14 are the best practices that should be replicated around 15 the country. 16 And with that, I will defer to Ms. Ellis, if 17 she has any opening comments. 18 MS. ELLIS: Good morning. Thank you for being 19 here this morning. We look forward to our discussion. 20 MS. CHUNN: Thank you. Good morning. I have 21 seen you on the street a couple of times this morning 22 already, so I know you're anxious to get this started. 7 1 I want you to keep in mind that this really is 2 about trying to make sure that we do the best job that 3 we can do, as we detain people across this country. 4 And so, as we pursue this, we will do it with vigor, 5 but it's because we want to make sure we get an 6 opportunity to feel the full effect of what's going on. 7 So, thank you in advance for your cooperation. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: With that, the first panel 9 will be Sergeant Matt Zartman and Sergeant Becky 10 Easterling, if they would come forward please. 11 Whereupon, 12 BECKY EASTERLING 13 MATT ZARTMAN 14 were called as witnesses and, having been 15 first duly sworn, were examined and testified as 16 follows: 17 EXAMINATION 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Ms. Easterling, would you 19 please state your full name and your title, and what 20 you do, and for how long, at the jail? 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: name is Rebecca 22 Easterling, I am the midnight shift commander. I have 8 1 been with the facility for 10-1/2 years, since the 2 opening in 1998. I am the senior supervisor on 3 midnight shift. I oversee the entire operations of the 4 facility, including maintenance grounds, overall 5 security of my staff and the inmates, and their medical 6 and mental well-being. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: And you have been the night 8 shift commander since it opened in 1998? 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Than three months on 10 afternoon shift. But other than that, I have been on 11 midnight shift the entire time, yes. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Great. Thank you, Commander. 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: My choice. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: And, Commander Zartman? 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Matthew Zartman. I have 16 been at the jail since 2000, been a supervisor 17 since -- a sergeant -- since 2003, on afternoon shift, 18 basically. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Have both of you had 20 the opportunity to review the Bureau of Justice 21 Statistics special report on sexual victimization on 22 local jails reported by inmates, 2007? 9 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, Sir. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. What does it mean to 4 you? What do you make out of it? Commander 5 Easterling? 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: In my opinion, Sir, some 7 of it, I believe, is fabrication. On the other hand, 8 too, we believe it's a tool to show that there are 9 flaws in our system. I would be a fool to think that 10 it does not occur, and I am not going to presume that 11 we're a flawless agency. 12 But I am going to -- I think we have all been 13 in the mind set since this survey came out that we're 14 going to use it as a learning tool and go from here. I 15 can't change what has happened or predict what is going 16 to happen. All we can do is go forward and learn from 17 it. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Commander Zartman? 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I wholeheartedly agree with 20 Sergeant Easterling, absolutely. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: I meant to say in my opening 22 statement that I want to thank Warden Tolmon for -- and 10 1 his staff -- for hosting me the day before yesterday at 2 your facility. I know it's disruptive to have suits 3 from Washington walking around, and Mr. Conrath was 4 gracious enough to make several round trips to Columbus 5 to pick me up. 6 More importantly, I want to greatly affirm 7 what I heard from Warden Tolmon -- 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Tolson, Sir. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Tolson. 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: I'm sorry. 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's all right. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: I should have had two cups of 14 coffee, not just one. I'm sorry. Forgive me, Warden. 15 Warden Tolson really impressed me with his 16 commitment to change. He gets it. He understands what 17 this report means. He is committed to change, 18 committed to improvement, committed to learning. And 19 that is half the ball game, as far as has been this 20 panel's experience. If the top leadership understands 21 that change is needed, then it can happen. Otherwise, 22 all the policies in the world are worthless. 11 1 So, I just want to affirm your superior is one 2 of the most receptive correctional professionals that I 3 have run into, and I am excited about both learning 4 what he inherited, which wasn't pretty, a couple of 5 years ago, and what -- and maybe, together, learning 6 what can be done. 7 So, back to the questioning. Commander 8 Zartman, what has been your training in the area of 9 sexual assault? 10 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: We have not had a PREA 11 training, per se. But it is something -- basically, if 12 something does occur, then of course we're going to 13 take care of it, if we're notified, immediately. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: What is -- what would you 15 expect your officers to do if they received an 16 allegation that a sexual assault had occurred on an 17 inmate, either by another inmate or by a staff member? 18 What's the procedure that you want them to do? How 19 would you "take care of it?" 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I would want them to notify 21 me immediately so I can isolate and investigate, and 22 try to get as much information as I can to call the 12 1 lieutenant and go up the chain of command. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. What else? In addition 3 to notifying you, what would you immediately want them 4 to do? What's the first response that you would want 5 them to -- 6 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Make sure -- first off, it 7 would be medical-wise, make sure they're okay, 8 mentally, physically. Isolate everything, if there is 9 a crime scene. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: How are you going to make sure 11 they're mentally okay? 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Talking to them. I mean, 13 they're human beings, just like everybody else. Treat 14 them with respect, you get respect back, of course. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. What would be the 16 procedure for investigation that you would like to see 17 your officers use? 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I don't believe the 19 officers have that much investigative training. I 20 would rather them to notify me. And, of course, I 21 haven't had that much training, either, in 22 investigative work. But I would like to, of course, 13 1 isolate it, and then try to take care of it as best as 2 I can. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay -- 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Call the lieutenant, see 5 what the -- he recommends. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Would you have -- at what 7 point would you get management involved? 8 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Immediately. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: What about any prosecutor or 10 outside -- in the Nelsonville Police Department, or 11 anybody else? 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That would be our hiring 13 administration -- 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, that would be -- 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- would make that call 16 at that time. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay, all right. Okay. So 18 it's your understanding that, in the event of a sexual 19 assault allegation, that you seal off the crime scene, 20 you get -- you make sure you're notified immediately, 21 management is notified immediately, and you make sure 22 that the victim, or alleged victim, is physically and 14 1 mentally cared for. 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: We also have a tri-county 3 mental health that we can call, as well, if need me. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: And they are on contract for 5 how many hours a week? 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Twenty-four hours a day. 7 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, 24 -- 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Four hours a day? 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Twenty-four hours a day. 10 MS. CHUNN: Twenty-four hours -- 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: They are on call for any 12 type -- 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh, okay. 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- of mental health 15 counseling, or for emergencies. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: But they are -- 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: For emergencies -- 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I'm sorry. They are 20 contracted to come in once a week. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Once a week for three hours, 22 right? 15 1 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, Sir. Yes. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: And so, the facility pays 3 extra, beyond the contract, for any emergency visits 4 that the tri-county people would make. Is that 5 correct, or do you know? 6 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I don't know the billing on 7 that. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: I can ask later panels. 9 Commander Easterling, do you have anything to add to 10 what you understand the policy or procedure calls for 11 in responding to a sexual assault? 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, he pretty well 13 covered it. I mean, the biggest thing is, first, 14 isolation, and then allowing as minimal staff to see 15 that area as possible. I mean, you don't want to 16 compromise the site, and you don't want to compromise 17 -- to have too many individuals, I think, speaking to 18 the victim or the perpetrator, because you can taint 19 the case, too, for prosecution. 20 So you do have to -- total isolation really is 21 the key, you know, I think on both sides. 22 MS. CHUNN: I want to drop back for a moment 16 1 and ask how the Southeastern Ohio Regional jail came 2 into existence. Was it a consolidation of a group of 3 small jails? 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am, it was. 5 MS. CHUNN: Okay. Would you -- 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Four counties. 7 MS. CHUNN: Would you say how many counties 8 are involved, and what the general capacity for most of 9 those county jails was? 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It's a four-county 11 regional. 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Five-county now, with 13 Vinton County. 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Well, five-county now. 15 We have added another. But the original was four 16 counties, and then we have added since then. Do you 17 need the numbers -- 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: For -- you mean the housing 19 capacity now, or what they had before? 20 MS. CHUNN: No, then. Before. 21 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Before? 22 MS. CHUNN: Right. 17 1 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I do not know. 2 MS. CHUNN: Okay. Do you have any ballpark 3 estimate of -- 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Very small on the 5 numbers. 6 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 7 MS. CHUNN: That's what I thought. 8 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Extremely small. 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. Very small 10 entities, yes. 11 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Extremely small, 10 to 15 12 people. 13 MS. CHUNN: That's what I thought. And so 14 this was seen as a cost-effective measure to sort of 15 pool your resources from those counties to come up with 16 a -- 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 18 MS. CHUNN: -- a regional jail which 19 certainly, when I looked at the age of the facility, it 20 was clear that folks thought this was a good idea, in 21 order to conserve resources. 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 18 1 MS. CHUNN: But now, this gets to my next 2 question, and it is about the policies and procedures. 3 As I read all of them, it almost felt like, to me, that 4 you just sort of took all the policies from all of the 5 local jails and put them together. 6 Am I mistaken in that, or could you enlighten 7 me as to how these policies came to be? 8 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Of course, I started in 9 2000. The jail was open in 1998, I believe. 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. It is true. The 11 policies, they're faulty. Some of them do not apply to 12 our facility. I mean, it's true. I mean, some of 13 those were consolidated from other facilities. 14 Our original warden had -- you know, 15 she -- policies weren't directed for the regional and 16 multi-county facility, they're not. 17 MS. CHUNN: I'm not trying to blame you -- 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, no, Ma'am. I'm just 19 telling you the truth. 20 MS. CHUNN: Right. 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: They are in error. 22 MS. CHUNN: I came from out of the system, and 19 1 I know how that goes sometimes. 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 3 MS. CHUNN: And that's what hit me, when I 4 read them. It felt like -- 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 6 MS. CHUNN: -- "Let's just put them all 7 together here." 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 9 MS. CHUNN: And I am going now to the whole 10 importance attached to sexual assaults and being 11 victimized as a detainee in the facility. 12 When I look down your list of priorities in 13 the institution -- incident reporting priority one and 14 priority two -- sexual assault is kind of number five. 15 And I certainly wouldn't quibble that death should be 16 number one, but I am kind of concerned about how 17 property damage and a couple of other things superseded 18 sexual assault. Would you enlighten me? 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We don't have -- we 20 don't use -- report those terms as incident one or two. 21 It's simply the incident report of the incident at 22 hand. 20 1 MS. CHUNN: Okay. 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We don't classify it 3 that way. 4 MS. CHUNN: Okay. 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, it should be 6 changed, if you want to do verbatim through the policy, 7 but that's not how we handle it, Ma'am. 8 MS. CHUNN: But if I were a new employee, and 9 you handed me this policy -- 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am. 11 MS. CHUNN: -- I would be governed by what you 12 have written here. 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. You would be 14 confused, yes. 15 MS. CHUNN: Okay. 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: You would be confused. 17 MS. CHUNN: So, what you're doing, in fact, 18 and what is written may not be congruent. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: This is true. 20 MS. CHUNN: Okay. 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 22 MS. CHUNN: Okay. 21 1 MS. ELLIS: Commander Zartman, you mentioned 2 that you have not had very much training related to 3 PREA? 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. 5 MS. ELLIS: I would like to kind of find out 6 what you know about the Prison Rape Elimination Act, in 7 terms of its importance, and also its ability to really 8 help you to address sexual assault in your facility. 9 So, could you talk a little bit about PREA, in 10 terms of the bit that you do know and understand about 11 it, and your responsibility related to it? 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: A very high responsibility, 13 because I'm the online commander. I am the first line 14 of management. PREA is extremely important. It is a 15 very -- nothing else said but zero tolerance. 16 MS. ELLIS: Exactly. 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: And it just cannot happen. 18 You cannot accept it, I guess. 19 The background about PREA, the only thing that 20 I'm pretty much aware of, is that it's to eliminate 21 this problem that is occurring throughout the states. 22 MS. CHUNN: Well, there is a great deal of 22 1 help available for you, as a consequence of PREA. And 2 we will talk about that to a certain degree. 3 Commander Easterling, your thoughts on the 4 whole idea and issue of PREA and its importance? 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I do think it's highly 6 important. I think it's long overdue. There for a lot 7 of years, there was always the mentality that it was 8 just a turnkey -- jails were just you throw them in the 9 cells, let them fend for themselves mentality. I think 10 those days are at an end, or trying to come to an end. 11 I believe we are lacking in PREA. 12 This -- actually, since the survey, this was the first 13 time we were ever made known of PREA. 14 MS. ELLIS: I see. 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Not that we don't 16 realize that these things exist in correctional 17 facilities, but it is highly important. It is 18 necessary, it's a safeguard for staff and inmates. And 19 hopefully -- there could be some -- a little bit better 20 way to know what is -- to get really at the truth of 21 the matter, versus what's fabricated, and some way, a 22 better way, of controlling it. 23 1 MS. ELLIS: Well, there is lots of help 2 available, in terms of training. 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am, I -- we are 4 aware of that. 5 MS. ELLIS: And of course, the training and 6 the acknowledgment and the acceptance of the importance 7 of PREA starts at the top, and I am sure it will filter 8 down throughout the entire staff. 9 But the training is very important, in helping 10 you to have a better understanding of sexual assault, 11 and how it plays out, and how victims react, and what 12 their specific needs are, and how you can build 13 internal programs that will help you to be more 14 efficient and more effective when these kinds of 15 dreadful things occur. 16 So, I won't belabor that point, other than to 17 say that there is an awful lot of information and 18 resources available to you, as an institution. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am. 20 MS. CHUNN: You know, I hate to keep coming 21 back to policy and procedure, but I've got to do it. 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I know. 24 1 MS. CHUNN: You've got a number of things here 2 that -- for example, gender supervision and things 3 about males being on female units, and females being on 4 male units. And you've got a lot of "no exceptions," 5 which always suggests to me, as a practitioner, that 6 there have been problems with that. Otherwise, you 7 wouldn't have had to write "no exception" down there. 8 Explain to me how these problems manifest 9 themselves, and what you're doing to handle these 10 cross-gender issues when it comes to the number of 11 items that you have. It's throughout your entire 12 policy manual. You've got a number of places where -- 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: What exactly is your 14 question you're wanting us to address? 15 MS. CHUNN: I want to know how are you 16 handling those issues. 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: As far as gender? 18 MS. CHUNN: Yes. When you say "no 19 exceptions," it's apparent to me there have been 20 reasons for people to want to bend that, or do 21 something different. Tell me how that generally occurs 22 in your facility, and tell me what you are doing to 25 1 handle that. 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I know one that comes to 3 mind quickly would be a male officer walking into the 4 female side. The control officer announces -- if we're 5 doing any walk-through, the control officer announces, 6 "Male officer coming through." 7 We now have it mandated to where every door in 8 A block stays open from wake-up to lock-down for the 9 night. Same thing with C block on the male side, doors 10 stay open, as well. 11 MS. CHUNN: And you don't see that as a 12 potential invitation to problems? 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We see it as an 14 invitation for more visibility? 15 MS. CHUNN: Okay. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: When you say, Commander 17 Zartman - just to clarify -- that the doors need to be 18 open, you're talking about the cell doors. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Cell doors, yes. 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: The room doors. 21 MS. CHUNN: Oh, the cell doors. 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, Ma'am. 26 1 MR. MCFARLAND: The -- 2 MS. CHUNN: I'm sorry. I thought you were 3 referring to the units. Okay. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Commander Easterling, what 5 training have you had in PREA? 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: None. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Specifically PREA? 9 None. Zero. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. What training have you 11 had in investigating crime scenes in a -- in the jail? 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Actual crime scenes? 13 Very little. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Most of the -- I can do 16 first responder, things like that. But when it comes 17 to actual crime scenes, those go to the outside 18 agencies. 19 MS. CHUNN: I see. 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That would be our local 21 police departments and things like that. And we also 22 have our inside chief of security that will also 27 1 handle -- and it goes up the chain. But actual 2 investigative, when it comes to crime, should be 3 handled for those that are skilled in that. And I am 4 not certified in that. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: The -- one of the documents 6 you all produced is entitled, "Shift Commander Post 7 Orders." 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Mm-hmm. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: You are familiar with this 10 document? 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I am familiar with it, 12 Sir. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: I bet. So -- and it has 33 14 responsibilities. Does that describe your job 15 description? 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Probably there is more 17 on there than that, Sir. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, I bet. One of them 19 says -- on item 28 -- "Investigate inmate discipline 20 and inmate complaints." To what extent are you 21 supposed to investigate? What's your understanding of 22 what that post -- 28 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: General day-to-day 2 activities of the inmates. Or, if they have, like, 3 grievances, anything from their -- I don't know, to be 4 minor incidences, as far as -- 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Loss of commissary -- 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, loss of commissary, 7 or -- 8 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Stolen commissary -- 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- fighting with another 10 inmate, or things -- not in the crime-related, but just 11 a general -- 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: The fighting would be 13 assaults. 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: They -- 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: We always press charges for 16 assaults. 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: But -- 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: "Food was too cold 20 today," or just general complaints. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay, okay. And it says on 22 item 33, the last responsibility, "Report any employee 29 1 disciplinary infractions promptly to the chief of 2 security." What kind of -- is that any disciplinary 3 infractions, or are those also more of the minor -- 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It would be all? 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Right, all. 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It would all be reported 7 to -- yes. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. Okay, okay. And item 16 9 says, "Handle inmate questions and problems." Again, 10 these would be of the minor variety, problems that -- 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: We're not talking about 13 allegations of sexual assault, then? 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We would handle that, 15 but -- 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It could. 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It is -- 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We haven't had any 20 that's been -- 21 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, yes. I understand that 30 1 you haven't had any. But just your understanding of 2 your job here, what does it mean to handle inmate 3 problems? 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Again, that goes back to 5 the day-to-day things that -- 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Whatever would happen to 7 come up for that day, Sir. 8 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It could be a million 10 and one different things that we would have to deal 11 with. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. But we are not talking 13 about a disciplinary infraction? 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No. We actually -- the way 15 that's set up would be like a hearing board -- 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: -- would hear that. 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Three people. 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: A three-people -- 20 MR. MCFARLAND: So -- okay. And we're not 21 talking about a crime. 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Sir. 31 1 MR. MCFARLAND: So we're not talking about 2 sexual assault. 3 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No, Sir. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: How would a -- just going 5 back, one last question about training, what training 6 would you like to have, and what training do you plan 7 to get, or do you know? 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Warden Tolson would 9 pretty much discuss -- 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- I'm sure, the future 12 training. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, yes. 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: He has been the one that 15 has been overseeing that, obviously. And I would like 16 to see more for ourselves, first, as supervisors, which 17 we can pass on, and then incorporate that with our 18 staff too, so that they can actually have in-house 19 training, too, for more PREA. But -- 20 MS. CHUNN: On the training, is that general 21 training or -- 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, specialized 32 1 training, if that's what you -- 2 MR. MCFARLAND: PREA training. 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, PREA training. 4 MS. ELLIS: Yes. Can I ask a question about 5 the type of training that you have now in place? 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Of what we have? 7 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It's so -- it's very broad. 8 I mean, we have unarmed self defense -- 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Mental health issues, 10 which they briefly touch on sexual assaults. It's more 11 with a psychological inmate, and how to care for the 12 different types of mental disorders, which we have an 13 enormous amount of at our facility, due to psychiatric 14 hospitals closing down around our areas. But yes, it 15 is. It's a broad base. 16 MS. ELLIS: And how frequent is that provided? 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It's every year we have to 18 have -- 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: In-service training. 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: -- in-service training. I 21 can't remember -- 80 hours? 22 MS. ELLIS: Is that the requirement for the 33 1 year? 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Forty-eight, I'm sorry. 3 MS. ELLIS: Eighty hours? 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am. 5 MS. ELLIS: Okay, thank you. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Your post orders also, on 7 number five, say that, "Ensure that oncoming shifts are 8 adequately covered." And then, in parentheses, it 9 says, "Five COs and one supervisor." Is that adequate 10 coverage, as you understand it, for the facility? 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We do not think so, 12 but -- 13 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: We'd like to have more COs. 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, we would like to 15 have more staff. 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That is the minimum that 18 we can function with. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: That's the minimum? Okay. 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: And you mentioned, Commander 22 Easterling, that you've got a lot of mentally ill or 34 1 challenged individuals. Approximately what percentage, 2 in your estimation -- 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Sir, I couldn't give you 4 a number, but I know it's a lot. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes? 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It's difficult. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Do they get classified, or do 8 your people -- or do you get any kind of a print-out of 9 who is who in each block, and those specifically that 10 have some mental illness -- 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We -- 12 MR. MCFARLAND: -- or are on medication, or -- 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. We do have a 14 roster. But one thing you have to bear in mind is we 15 are a small facility. We have a revolving door on the 16 majority of the inmates that we have in our facility. 17 We know them all by name, by sight, as soon as they 18 walk -- enter the building. They have been in our 19 facility, some of them, up to 20 times. They are well 20 known. 21 We are having more from our outside agencies. 22 I hate to use the term, but we're like a dumping 35 1 ground, it seems like, for some of the outside 2 contracts. Their undesirables that they cannot handle, 3 they send to us. And it makes it difficult, but I 4 couldn't tell you. 5 It's probably a high number, but I couldn't 6 even begin to guess. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 8 MS. CHUNN: If a detainee wants to file a 9 complaint, how does he or she go about doing that? 10 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: They can file a complaint 11 with the officer, either the -- 12 MS. CHUNN: With the officer on duty? 13 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: The officer that was either 14 roving, or the direct supervised and minimum -- there 15 is sometimes two officers down there, but at least one. 16 They can use a request form. We have had letters 17 handed to us about -- 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Discreetly, even. 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, discreetly handed to 20 us. We now have a phone service that they can report 21 now, totally anonymous of something, give us a heads 22 up, or to report a sexual assault. 36 1 MS. CHUNN: Is that phone service connected to 2 the jail, or the center? 3 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, Ma'am. 4 MS. CHUNN: Are there any ways to file a 5 complaint beyond the Southeastern center? 6 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: They can always mail -- use 7 the mail, I assume. 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Mail, visits. We also 9 have -- 10 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Visits, yes. 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- chaplains on -- there 12 is other avenues. We have programs -- 13 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Medical -- 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We have counselors. 15 There is -- 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- different avenues 18 where they could, if they feel that they've bonded with 19 someone, as far as one of their staff members, 20 like -- if a counselor, if they feel more confident 21 with them, for confidentiality, there is avenues. 22 We have had things reported from other 37 1 department heads, and things like that, that's -- 2 MS. CHUNN: I saw that your average length of 3 stay is about 10 days. How do you go about orienting 4 new detainees about these rights that they have? 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: As far as sexual 6 assault? 7 MS. CHUNN: Yes. 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Ma'am, we don't. 9 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, we get no PREA -- 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We -- 11 MS. CHUNN: I beg your pardon? 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We don't, Ma'am. Yes. 13 I'm not going to say we do. 14 MS. CHUNN: Well, I appreciate your honesty. 15 I just wanted to be sure. 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 17 MS. CHUNN: I'm getting to an age where I 18 sometimes -- 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, there is no 20 specific -- 21 MS. CHUNN: -- think I heard something I 22 didn't hear. 38 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Ma'am. There is no 2 specific format that we use to say if we feel someone 3 -- during intake, we use that medical screening. So 4 we have a good judge on who is coming in, through our 5 medical questionnaire, when they're booked in, so we 6 can see either a potential victim or an aggressor. We 7 know this individual is a predator. We do our own 8 screening. 9 But as far as if we feel someone -- I have 10 spoken to people, I'm sure Mr. Zartman has too, to 11 inmates before, when I feel that they were small in 12 stature, or -- you know, and tried to give them a talk 13 aside, you know, or something like that, or isolate 14 them in a different area, or a safer zone. But there 15 is no actual thing, written or verbal, that's been 16 given to the inmates. 17 MS. CHUNN: When this center opened, were the 18 people from the respective local jails given priority 19 in hiring? 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Given priority? 21 MS. CHUNN: Did the people who worked in the 22 individual county jails -- 39 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am. We had 2 transfers -- 3 MS. CHUNN: -- get priority? 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 5 MS. CHUNN: Did you, in other words, inherit 6 most of the staff -- 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 8 MS. CHUNN: -- from the smaller units into 9 Southeastern? 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, we did. 11 MS. ELLIS: Commander Easterling, in your 10 12 years of experience up there in that facility, what has 13 been your experience with sexual assault? Have you 14 seen a number of them? 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Sexual misconduct among 16 staff and -- yes. And very few inmate-to-inmate, that 17 we were aware of. 18 MS. ELLIS: What about staff? 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Staff? We have had 20 allegations -- 21 MS. ELLIS: Staff to inmates. 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- and we have had 40 1 things that have occurred with our staff throughout the 2 years, yes. 3 MS. ELLIS: And they have been investigated, 4 and -- 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am. 6 MS. ELLIS: Do you recall any of the outcomes 7 of those incidents? 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: They all were given the 9 opportunity to resign. 10 MS. ELLIS: I see. 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: They were not 12 terminated. I wish they could have been terminated. 13 If -- but that wasn't my decision on that. But they 14 had all resigned. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Were they -- were any of them 16 criminally prosecuted? 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Sir, they weren't. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Suffice it to say you would 19 remember? 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Oh, yes, Sir. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Word would get around, if -- 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 41 1 MR. MCFARLAND: It's a small community. 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Is that correct? 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's correct. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. This -- and when was 6 the last time that an event of sexual misconduct by 7 staff took place, in your recollection? 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: 2007, of allegations of 9 misconduct. I don't know if it went as far as sexual 10 conduct. But misconduct with an inmate, yes. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. When was the last time 12 that a -- it was so serious that a staff member was 13 allowed the opportunity to resign? 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It was like in the -- 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That was 2005? 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I think. 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I believe 2005, Sir, but 18 I -- 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Prior to -- 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I'm not sure. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: -- Warden Tolson's taking 22 over? 42 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Oh, yes, Sir. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes? 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 4 MS. CHUNN: Would it be safe to say, then, 5 that was pretty much the custom for handling things? 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Unfortunately, Ma'am, 7 yes. It was easier to -- the ugliness to go away, I'm 8 sure. 9 MS. CHUNN: Yes, I asked the question about 10 whether you inherited the staff from other facilities, 11 because generally, if the culture is pretty much the 12 same at all the small facilities, people bring those 13 attitudes and those values -- 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 15 MS. CHUNN: -- to the new center, especially 16 if there isn't an intensive training effort provided to 17 set a new tone about what is going on. Am I safe in 18 that assumption? 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, Ma'am. 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am, you are. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: The jail, in response to our 22 information requests, stated that there had been no 43 1 events of sexual misconduct in 2007 involving sexual 2 allegations. 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: To my knowledge, that's 4 correct, Sir. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: So the event that you were 6 talking about earlier was staff misconduct, but it was 7 not sexual in nature in 2007? 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, I believe that's 9 the truth. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. The jail reported that 11 there was one incident of inmate-on-inmate sexual 12 victimization in 2007. And we will talk to Officer Van 13 Bibber about that, because I think he was involved in 14 the reporting there. 15 But do you recall that incident, either of 16 you? 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I was on -- 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I read the report. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- medical leave at the 20 time. 21 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I didn't -- 22 MR. MCFARLAND: I'm sorry? 44 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We both read the report. 2 I wasn't present at that time. I was on medical leave 3 during that period. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: And this is the -- an event 5 where the inmate was apparently propositioning oral sex 6 to everyone in the C block? 7 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Same report, yes. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: So you don't have, independent 9 of this narrative, this one paragraph narrative that we 10 were provided, do you have -- have you reviewed any 11 other documents, that you can shed some light on that 12 event? 13 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No, Sir. Again, it would 14 go up the chain of command. It would bypass us, go 15 straight to the lieutenant. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: So it didn't occur on your 17 shifts, is that right? 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: I mean, Commander Easterling 20 was out, and -- 21 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I don't know if it was on 22 afternoon shift that he was working that day. But, 45 1 again, it would go straight up to the lieutenant, due 2 to the severity. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Lieutenant Eddy? 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I'm sorry. Yes, Sir, yes. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: The warden is just giving you 6 some paper there. Did that refresh your recollection 7 on anything? 8 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Of -- this is the same 9 report. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, I've just got a 11 one-page -- a one-paragraph report, "Reporting 12 Employee's Narrative," report number 07-0357. Do you 13 have any other information about this allegation 14 on -- of November 3, 2007? 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No, I was not a part of 16 anything on that. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: And nothing that the warden 18 just provided you -- 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: He provided us with the 20 disciplinary of what occurred after. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh, okay. 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: They were both placed on 46 1 30-day lock-down. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Both of the inmates? 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Both of the inmates, 4 yes. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And they -- 6 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Heard by Lieutenant Eddy. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Lieutenant Eddy? All right. 8 Well, we will talk to them about that, then. 9 Now, last month you had a suicide, is that 10 correct? 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: And that occurred on whose 13 watch? 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Mine, Sir. I was the 15 supervisor on duty, and also the first responder. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: You found the individual? 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Did an inmate find him first? 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And that occurred in a 21 shower. Is that correct? 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 47 1 MR. MCFARLAND: That must have been very 2 traumatic for everybody involved. 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. It is. It 4 still is. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. Did anybody see this 6 coming? Was this guy labeled as a mental health -- 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Sir. This one came 8 completely out of the blue. There was no -- I couldn't 9 see it coming, and I view myself as pretty astute, as 10 far as -- when it comes to inmates. And I didn't see 11 it coming at all. 12 He was a fairly new inmate, too. Granted, we 13 didn't know his mental health background, as one of our 14 regulars, as you want to put it, that come in all the 15 time, but I still didn't see it coming. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: What information do you 17 typically get on the mental background, abuse 18 background, any kind of information on the inmates that 19 come in? 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: A lot of them are very 21 forthcoming, as far as what their background is. For 22 one, they're drug seekers when they come in. So they 48 1 are very readily eager to give you their medical 2 background. They will tell you if they are -- how much 3 heroin they're doing during the day, how many times 4 they committed suicide (sic) in the past. I have yet 5 to find one that really would not give you that 6 information like that. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Are you involved in booking? 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. I am, too, 9 yes. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So you overhear this 11 sort of stuff? 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, we -- 13 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Every day. 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Not only are we the 15 supervisors, but since we are a small facility we're 16 usually very hands-on, too. We handle a lot of the 17 inmates ourselves, personally. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Whether it be booking 20 them in, doing walk-through checks, actual hands-on, 21 one on one. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 49 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We do what's needed. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: How many officers do you have 3 on your night shift, Commander? 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Usually, it's on the 5 average -- like we said before, the minimal is five COs 6 to one supervisor. And without anyone taking any 7 vacation or comp, it's usually six COs and one 8 supervisor on any given night, usually. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 10 MS. ELLIS: Commander, how old was this 11 individual who completed suicide? 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I believe he was 19. 13 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: He was young. 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 15 MS. ELLIS: So he was young? 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Very serious charges, 19 but yes, he was young. 20 MS. ELLIS: Is this the first inmate who has 21 completed suicide in your -- 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am. 50 1 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 2 MS. ELLIS: I see. Did you develop a fatality 3 team to review the circumstances, and to investigate 4 this matter to any degree? 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am. It 6 was -- from that night on, not only did we also have 7 mental health counseling for ourselves, it was also 8 offered to the inmates in the block, because I felt 9 that it was just as traumatic to the inmates in there, 10 also. 11 And everything was handled from outside 12 agencies, so there would be no prejudice, and it would 13 be more -- I just lost my train of thought. 14 MS. ELLIS: Yes. 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I'm sorry. This is a 16 very sensitive subject with me still. 17 MS. ELLIS: I realize that. I realize that, 18 that it's a -- 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Who is the outside agency, if 20 I can just jump in? 21 MS. ELLIS: Yes. 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That was BCI, out of 51 1 Columbus, the Bureau of -- 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Criminal Investigation. 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- Criminal 4 Investigation. 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Identification and 6 Investigation. 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: I'm sorry? 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It was a state 10 organization to -- that took over the investigation of 11 it. 12 MS. ELLIS: I would also like to know how long 13 this individual was incarcerated before. 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Only for about three 15 days, Ma'am. 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It wasn't very long at all. 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. As I said, this 18 was totally out of the blue. 19 MS. ELLIS: I see. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: And are you aware of what, if 21 anything, has been done in light of that suicide last 22 month, in terms of changing staffing, line of sight, 52 1 any other procedures or staffing? 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, I have implemented 3 several things myself, as far as -- before, my staff 4 and I would go through, we have hourly checks, and it 5 goes throughout the day. It's more important more so 6 on midnight shift, it always has been, due to things 7 are more apt to happen on midnight shift. 8 Now, actually, our walk-throughs, when they go 9 through every hour, they actually physically go in the 10 bathrooms, instead of just looking in. Unfortunately, 11 this young man was small in stature. Where he was, I'm 12 sorry, hanging from the vent in the shower, he was not 13 visible, even from the door to the bathroom. It was 14 completely -- 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Concealed. 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, completely 17 concealed. There was nothing that could be seen out of 18 the way when the officer even looked in. 19 So, there is different things where -- that 20 we're doing. And I have cautioned my staff, too, 21 to -- whenever they see someone up and about, go and 22 ask them, "Hey, how's it going?" I mean, try to get 53 1 some sort of contact conversation going. Try to start 2 reading in between the lines if you see -- you know, 3 sometimes if it, you know, walks like a duck, quacks 4 like a duck, you know, that mentality. 5 Just start being more one-on-one with them in 6 population, and just use your instincts more than just 7 being complacent and just walking through and, you 8 know, doing your checks and actual -- you know, be more 9 visible, and be more vocal. That's been my 10 personal -- because I have taken this more personally. 11 MS. ELLIS: Well, then, let me ask you this. 12 Do you have a peer support group there, at your 13 facility, for you and your colleagues -- 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir, I -- 15 MS. ELLIS: -- and staff? 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Or, I'm sorry, yes, 17 Ma'am. I think they handled this situation -- it was 18 above reproach. I could never begin to thank my own 19 staff and my coworkers for what they did to me, 20 personally. 21 MS. ELLIS: Okay. 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: So -- 54 1 MS. CHUNN: Tell me. I want to go back to 2 what you said about things more likely to happen on a 3 night shift. 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 5 MS. CHUNN: What's going on at night? 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, I believe -- well, 7 I'm referring to suicides and things like that. Sexual 8 assaults? No, Ma'am. 9 MS. CHUNN: Well, let me just tell you where 10 I'm coming from. Generally, most people are -- you 11 have a lights out for some period. 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am. 13 MS. CHUNN: And, generally, most people are in 14 their rooms. And that's why I'm trying to understand 15 what -- 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: There were -- 17 MS. CHUNN: -- could be happening at night. 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We have a lock that's 20 also open dormitory. We have fights that occur at 21 night. They know, too, we have less staff at night, 22 and things will occur. During the day shift they also 55 1 have administration. There is a number of people that 2 can also help in certain situations. 3 Midnights, we deal with more incoming. Even 4 though they're in bed, that's a perfect world, Ma'am. 5 It doesn't happen, you know? 6 MS. CHUNN: So, the detainees know, then, that 7 you're more vulnerable? 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am, they do. 9 They have 24 hours a day to plan their line of attack 10 on us. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Is -- 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: And they do so. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Is C block a dormitory or a 14 cell? 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It's a cell, Sir. 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Cell. 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: C and D is cell for 18 males, and females it's A block. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: So this occurred on the 20 midnight shift -- 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: E block dormitory. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: E block dorm? 56 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: E block dormitory, which 2 is still in front of the control, and -- 3 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Upstairs. 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Upstairs. Control saw a 5 number of inmates congregating in front of the 6 bathroom, and radioed us. And we headed in there. We 7 thought there might have been a fight or something in 8 the bathroom. And myself and another officer entered 9 in, and found the young man hanging. He was nude. 10 And, from later investigations actually that 11 night, the inmates had stated they thought -- why they 12 thought -- they said that they thought that the inmate 13 was sleeping in the bathroom. I still find that hard 14 to believe, but that's their words, not mine, 15 so -- yes. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: How long is it estimated that 17 he was hanging -- 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We don't know. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: -- before he was discovered? 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: The autopsy's not back. 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: The autopsy has not been 22 returned yet. 57 1 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It's not back yet. 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We haven't received any 3 of the investigative part of that yet. 4 MS. CHUNN: But he was -- 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Hopefully not long. 6 MS. CHUNN: He was hanging long enough to be 7 dead -- 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 9 MS. CHUNN: -- and not brain dead. Just 10 completely dead. 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I can't attest to -- 12 MS. CHUNN: Yes. 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I tried CPR -- 14 MS. CHUNN: Yes. 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- as soon as we cut him 16 down, Ma'am. 17 MS. CHUNN: Yes. 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: And did the best that I 19 could. And he wasn't -- he was pronounced dead at -- 20 MS. CHUNN: Before he left you. 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Ma'am. 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No, at the hospital. 58 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: He was pronounced dead 2 at the hospital. 3 MS. CHUNN: At the hospital? 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: They were still 5 doing -- do I think he was deceased when he left our 6 facility? Yes, I do. 7 MS. CHUNN: Okay. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: So this was a dorm style in E 9 block. 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Where it occurred. And they 12 are double-bunked in E block, is that correct? 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Bottom tier and top tier. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. So how many are in E 16 block? 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It can hold 24. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Twenty-four. Would you want 19 to do anything differently, in light of that, in terms 20 of if you had the space? Are you comfortable with 21 dorm -- two-tiered dormitory-type bedding, given that 22 custody level? 59 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, I'm still very 2 comfortable with how the set-up is in there, yes. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I don't foresee 5 it - it's more on more staffing, more being 6 contentious. And we can do those things better, but -- 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, there is no direct 8 supervision, in terms of -- there is no correctional 9 officer who is physically in -- 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Oh, in the housing? 11 MR. MCFARLAND: -- the E block all the time, 12 right? 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Sir, there is not. 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. There is 15 satellite supervision. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: So you've got one individual 17 in the -- in control, correct? 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Correct. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: And he or she -- during the 21 night shift, it's one individual, is that correct? You 22 don't have two in the control? 60 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Sir. There is only 2 one. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. And so, he or she 4 would be responsible for visually looking at one, two, 5 three, four, five blocks at one time. Is that correct? 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's correct. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: As well as watching 44 8 monitors, is that correct? 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's correct, yes. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Now, theoretically, at least 11 those who are not in the dorm style, they are locked 12 down in their double-bunked cells, is that right? 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: One block, D block, 14 which is our disciplinary unit, is single cell. And C 15 block is double cells. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: If it was -- if we had 18 the funding, it would be great to have a CO posted in 19 every block, but Sir, it's just -- I don't ever foresee 20 it being possible at that facility. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: How many rovers do you have 22 during your shift? 61 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Two. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Two. So, once an hour they 3 physically enter each block? 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Do they do that regularly or 6 irregularly? 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It will vary a little 8 bit, from time to time. It also depends on, too, with 9 intake coming in, something may -- there isn't an exact 10 time that they go in, but it's within the hour time. 11 So they are at least in there once an hour. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. It wouldn't take very 13 long for somebody to assault another in between those 14 hours, would it? 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Sir, it wouldn't. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: No, okay. So staffing is a 17 real need, in your opinion. 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir, it is. 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: You've got almost 200 beds 21 filled. You have pre-trial detainees that are accused 22 of murder? 62 1 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Sleeping with or around 4 individuals who are in there for 10 days for driving 5 with a suspended license, is that -- 6 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: That would be part of the 7 classification. We try to separate that. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, I -- 9 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It does happen. Yes, 10 absolutely. Yes, it does. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Monday I randomly talked to an 12 individual by the name of Corey, who was bunked above 13 an individual who was awaiting trial for hacking his 14 father to death. 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: And Corey was in there for a 17 10-day stay for driving with a suspended license. 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Driving on suspension, yes. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Would you like to change that, 20 so that never could happen? 21 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I would love to, yes. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 63 1 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: That would be a 2 lot -- change a lot of things. 3 MS. CHUNN: You know, we have talked some 4 about the need for additional staff. And then there 5 are some issues with the floor plan of the facility, 6 itself, and maximizing line of vision. 7 But there are also issues that have to do with 8 attitude of the staff. And I kind of keep coming back 9 to that, because sometimes people go into new buildings 10 with bad habits that they have had for a long time. 11 And when they've been doing it for a long time, it's an 12 issue. 13 What do you do, since it's fairly clear from 14 your responses, that you do care about how well and how 15 effective you are in doing this work? What do you do 16 to provide coaching, ongoing training to your people 17 about the values that you hold about keeping detainees 18 safe, and making sure that not only are they not 19 committing suicide, but they're also not being raped 20 and sexually assaulted? What things do you do, as 21 commanders? 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: We show that -- both of us, 64 1 we're hands on. I am not going to ask you to do 2 anything that -- 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We haven't done 4 ourselves, and -- 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. I respect a job worth 6 doing is a job worth doing right. I plow that into my 7 guys' heads as much as I can. 8 MS. CHUNN: Have you had an opportunity, the 9 two of you, since you have comparable functions, have 10 you had an opportunity to sit down and actually map out 11 some things that you want to say and do routinely with 12 all of your direct care staff? 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We are trying to do that 14 now. 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We have been doing that, 17 yes. I tried to implement and utilize the probationary 18 period. And, quite frankly, I tried to weed out some 19 of those that I don't think are -- 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Capable. 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- capable of working 22 there. There is no sure-fire way to know or predict 65 1 what an officer is going to do, or what path they're 2 going to take. But I have been -- I do utilize that. 3 If I think that -- 4 MS. CHUNN: But you have not yet made the 5 progress you would like to see made? 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No. 7 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No. 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Ma'am. 9 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Far from it. 10 MS. CHUNN: Okay. 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: But I'm pretty damn 12 good, I'm telling you. 13 MS. CHUNN: Yes. 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: With the nickname that I 15 do have, which is, "The Headhunter." But I do utilize 16 that. I -- call it what you may, Ma'am, but -- 17 MS. CHUNN: Are there screens in place -- 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- we have a lot of 19 undesirables that have been employed there. 20 MS. ELLIS: Oh. 21 MS. CHUNN: I was about to ask, are there 22 screens in place to maximize the probability of getting 66 1 the kind of staff that you -- 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. They have -- 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: There is no sure-fire 4 way. 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: They've made the hiring 6 process a lot better than just a single interview, 7 "Okay, you're hired," or -- "No, we don't have," you 8 know, type of thing. 9 There is a panel now. There is a board, and 10 it goes up through different channels. It makes it a 11 lot -- more better, I guess. 12 MS. CHUNN: Are there background 13 investigations, formal background investigations? 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. We do check them on 15 leads, do a background check, any criminal history, 16 driving record, to see if they even simply lied on the 17 application, because there is a spot on there about 18 traffic. And, of course, they -- sometimes they just 19 simply lie about, "I had a speeding ticket." 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Commander, can you scoot your 21 microphone a little closer to your mouth, there? 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Sure. 67 1 MR. MCFARLAND: That would be great. 2 MS. ELLIS: What are the qualifications for 3 employment? 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: What we would like to 5 see? 6 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: No, no. What -- 8 (Laughter.) 9 MS. ELLIS: I think I was clear on that 10 question. 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I know, Ma'am. I was 12 trying to probably dodge the question, quite frankly. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: What are the minimum 14 qualifications for being a correctional officer in your 15 facility? 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Breathing. 17 MS. CHUNN: Walking? 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Heartbeat. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Some sort of a strong 20 work ethic. We have noticed a lot -- we have a lot 21 coming in that really are not actual law enforcement 22 experience, but we try to find those. Military 68 1 experience is a big plus. We have a lot coming in, any 2 more, with military experience. A good, strong work 3 ethic that, whatever job they were holding at the time, 4 at least we have good feedback from the employer, as 5 far as zero absences, loyalty to the facility -- 6 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Length of employment. 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Length of employment, a 8 lot of stability. But not actual corrections. We 9 don't get too many more that will come in. Now he's 10 going to throw a statistic at us. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: The warden is -- 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Or I will -- can I refer 13 this to the warden, please? 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, absolutely. 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Since it's his -- 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Absolutely. 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Okay. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: If I told you that the 19 position description provides -- says that a completion 20 of high school is preferred, but not required, is that 21 your understanding of the -- 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, yes. 69 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So you don't have to 2 have a GED to work there? 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, it has to be -- from 4 what I was told before, it was going to be GED or high 5 school would be a minimum. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, the -- 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I know. According to 10 the policies, I -- we kind of -- 11 MR. MCFARLAND: There is a discrepancy in -- 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: There is a discrepancy. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: In one place it says that a 14 high school diploma or equivalent is required, and the 15 position description says differently. So I'm just 16 wondering what your experience has been with the 17 hiring. 18 MS. ELLIS: Do you -- 19 MS. CHUNN: While we are talking about that, 20 what is the turnover -- and I know we will touch on it 21 a little later -- but, from where you sit, are you more 22 likely to retain the staff that are hired, or are they 70 1 more likely to leave you after some point? 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: We have dry spells, where 3 nobody is turned over. But then again, we have times 4 that, you know, one or two quit, or somebody gets 5 fired, or something like that, back to back to back. 6 MS. CHUNN: I see. 7 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: So it's very wishy washy. 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We have lost a lot since 9 the facility has opened. We have had a huge turnover. 10 Like he said, though, it does come in waves, whether 11 some just moved on, they were just using this as a 12 stepping stone for something else, or they found out 13 that they just didn't like it. 14 It can be a very dirty job. A lot of people 15 don't realize that until they enter the field, I think. 16 And no matter how you stress it in an interview, and 17 try to explain even in detail, people just don't grasp 18 the type of work that you have to do. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: What's the starting salary for 20 a CO? 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: What is it? 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: They just had a union 71 1 contract -- 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 3 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It was $11.73, I believe. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: $11.73 an hour? 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I believe. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: And are there -- 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Wasn't it $10, or 8 something? I believe it's around -- oh, okay. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: $11.14? 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, I'm not even up on 11 it myself. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. And are 13 there -- is there health insurance? 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Is that a -- in the 17 Nelsonville area, is that a decent, you know, 18 competitive wage, in your opinion? 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We don't think so, but 20 we are an Appalachian area, and I guess it would be 21 comparable, you know. It would be a decent wage for 22 someone in that area. We would like to see it 72 1 increased, obviously. Who wouldn't? But -- 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. A lot of folks living on 3 the poverty line in those counties, right? 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir, they are. 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 7 MS. ELLIS: I can imagine, then, it must be 8 very difficult for you, working in that environment, 9 with people that you have to weed through and eliminate 10 because they simply cannot do the work. 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 12 MS. ELLIS: And, as you say, are suspect on so 13 many levels. 14 What's the morale like in your institution? 15 Those of you who are committed to the mission and want 16 to see change, want to see improvement, do not want to 17 be on this list, but want to be on the other side of 18 that list, what's it like, in getting motivated and 19 getting up for this work? 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I believe our morale has 21 risen since Warden Tolson has taken over. 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 73 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We have had four wardens 2 prior to Warden Tolson, and no consistency. I mean, 3 even us, sometimes we would just do our jobs the best 4 we could. We didn't feel we had the support, the 5 training, or someone that really cared enough to even 6 participate in anything. 7 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Warden Tolson has came up 8 through the ranks from CO. 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: So -- 10 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: He has worked our jobs. 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: He has done -- he knows 13 what we go through every day, and he is very conscious 14 of that, which makes it -- 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: And he wants to work 16 with us. 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: -- a lot easier. 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: And he wants to improve. 19 And he enjoys our feedback. You know, if we have a 20 problem, it's an open door. So we have that 21 communication going on, and I think we can do nothing 22 but get better. I don't foresee us regressing, not at 74 1 this stage. We're just tired of the way it was, and we 2 would like to see, you know, things improving. 3 Some of us want this as a career. We're not 4 looking at it as just a job, you know. We have family, 5 we have roots in the community. And we would like to, 6 you know, stay. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: And the facility is barely 10 8 years old, and you're on your fifth warden? 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 10 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It's sad. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: And Warden Tolson's 13 predecessor was there from 2003 to 2007? 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: He was the longest 15 warden, Sir. 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I believe, yes. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: You now have a warden who is 19 very sensitive to sexual assault, preventing it. 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: The facility, in 21 general, is more -- 22 MR. MCFARLAND: And he came aboard in the 75 1 middle of 2007, right around the time that the survey 2 was about to -- so he inherited a situation. 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir, he did. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: How would you describe the 5 attitude of his predecessor regarding sexual assault? 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I -- Sir, I would just 7 characterize him as an ass. I don't want to say 8 anything else. I believe he -- 9 MS. ELLIS: I think -- 10 MR. MCFARLAND: I think you just said it. 11 (Laughter.) 12 MS. CHUNN: I was about to say, "You were 13 clear on that, Commander." 14 MS. ELLIS: Are you going home to work? 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Commander Zartman, how would 16 you characterize -- and I'm not -- you know, I'm just 17 talking about sensitivity to sexual assault, staff on 18 inmate, or inmate on inmate. Do you -- did his 19 predecessor have a zero tolerance policy? 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I feel the same way 21 Sergeant Easterling does. 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, I apologize for 76 1 saying that, too. 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: His -- 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That wasn't appropriate, 4 but that is how I feel. 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It was a blessing that he 6 left. 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: So the current policies, most 9 of them -- a number of them don't have an effective 10 date written on them. But those that do are pretty 11 much in -- 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: In 2003. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: -- 2003, during or even right 14 at the beginning of his predecessor's tenure. So are 15 you aware of any discussion about updating these 16 policies, related to sexual assault? 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Warden Tolson asks us for 18 our input to almost any policy that he is trying to get 19 through the board, which is almost an impossibility. 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. We're fighting 15 21 individuals. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 77 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: We will ask him about the 3 corrections commission. 4 MS. CHUNN: Based on your experience now, 5 where are the vulnerable places in your facility? 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Are you referring to 7 blind spots? 8 MS. CHUNN: Yes. I am referring to places 9 where detainees could be assaulted. 10 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It could happen anywhere. 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I mean -- 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, if -- 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Ultimately -- 15 MR. MCFARLAND: If we told you that one 16 happened last night, where would -- but we didn't tell 17 you where, where would you want to look? Where are the 18 most vulnerable places? 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It would be, obviously, 20 their cells, our housing units. I mean, we have 21 kitchen areas that have blind spots, supply closets, we 22 have change-out rooms with no cameras. We have a 78 1 number of places -- 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Now, a change-out room with no 3 cameras, that's where they -- 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: For -- during the 5 booking process, when they -- 6 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: When they initially change 7 out. 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, they initially 9 change into inmate clothing, once they're booked in. 10 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It has an intercom, but 12 it doesn't have a camera, obviously. 13 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It's also recorded in that 14 room, as well. 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: And it is recorded, yes. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Audio recorded? 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay, but there is no camera. 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Sir. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: When the new admittee strips 22 down and is issued his jail uniform -- 79 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That is correct. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: -- he is in there alone with a 3 correctional officer. 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Of the same sex, yes. 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: There is no window on the 7 door? 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No. 9 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No. 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It's completely sealed 11 off. No sight. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: And with a total of five or 13 six COs handling the entire 200-bed facility, you 14 probably don't have too many people monitoring what's 15 going on inside the change-out room, right? 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Not really, but there is 17 a -- the booking officer is right there. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Right around the corner. I 20 mean, it's -- 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: You can even hear, 22 usually -- 80 1 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: You can -- yes. 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- general conversations 3 coming from that, if the noise in booking is not very 4 loud, or you don't have someone -- 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Kicking the doors, or -- 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- kicking the doors or 7 screaming in booking. But you can pretty well hear. 8 But no, there is no visibility. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: And in that change-out room, 10 isn't there a little half-wall? 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir, there is. 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: So you could have a camera 14 that would not expose the genitalia of a male inmate, 15 but still -- and you could have female inmates face 16 away from the camera, and still respect their privacy, 17 is that correct? 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Sometimes they come past 19 that partition wall to put their clothes on, standing 20 in water -- 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It would be real hard to 22 keep that private, with a camera like that, and now 81 1 show sensitive area of their body, whether it be male 2 or female. It would be difficult, yes. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: But if -- it might be -- 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It's possible -- 5 MR. MCFARLAND: It might be worth it to 6 protect you and your staff against allegations that 7 some shenanigans were going on. 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's true, that's 9 true. 10 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: At least the audio. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: I think -- yes. I talked to 12 the warden about that, and -- 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It's definitely on the 14 table for discussion. I mean, we could sit and debate 15 that, I mean, there is no doubt, but -- 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So you mentioned, in 17 answer to Ms. Chunn's question: kitchen -- 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Kitchen. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: -- change-out room -- 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We have a -- 21 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Storage closet. 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Storage areas. 82 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Where are the storage areas -- 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: And the kitchen -- dry 3 storage, I'm sorry. 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: On -- 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Dry storage in the kitchen. 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: And in the main hallway, 7 also, where we have, like, the toilet paper and things 8 like that. 9 We have also conference rooms, where usually 10 our chaplain and attorney -- there are rooms off to the 11 side of the main hallway. Control may see you take an 12 inmate, which would be a question on my shift, "Where 13 are you going with that inmate?" 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: But once they're in 16 behind those closed doors, it would be considered a 17 blind spot. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: And, now, the conference room 19 where classes and chapel occur -- 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That would -- 21 MR. MCFARLAND: -- has windows on the walls, 22 right? 83 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. And there are 2 also -- 3 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: On the -- 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- intercoms inside. 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: There is -- on the first 6 conference room there is a window -- the second, third, 7 and fourth. The third one is not used, but they have 8 windows on the doors. 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Are you talking about 10 the long classroom? 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's the library, 13 also, for the programs, yes. 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, I'm sorry. I thought 15 you were talking about conference rooms. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: But it has intercoms. 18 The camera can see pretty much in there, but it has 19 blind areas in the library, yes. 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 84 1 MR. MCFARLAND: And, as we learned with the 2 suicide, the -- there are blind spots in the housing 3 units. 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir, there are. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: There are alcoves in the 6 showers. 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: And, unless a rover -- 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Physically enters that 10 area -- 11 MR. MCFARLAND: -- physically comes in at the 12 right time -- 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: -- there could be rape going 15 on for up to an hour, and nobody could see it. 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No -- well -- 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It's a possibility, yes. 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It's a possibility, yes. 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: But with other inmates in 20 there, I mean, it kind of discourages -- 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: With the 22 door -- unfortunately, with his small stature, where he 85 1 was at, he couldn't be seen. But with the door of the 2 bathrooms, you do have a top area and a bottom area. 3 You can see if someone's on the toilet -- 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- you can see their 6 feet. I mean, there are certain areas when someone 7 enters into that bathroom that you can physically see 8 them from that control. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: But only -- 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: But still maintain their 11 privacy. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: But only if your one or two 13 roving COs -- 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Roving and control can 15 also see, though, through that door. They can see that 16 top part. So, there is somewhat visibility they can 17 see -- 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Some of the restroom. They 19 can't see the alcoves. 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, no. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Correct. And that's where the 22 gentleman -- 86 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: -- committed suicide. 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: There is that leeway. 5 Yes, Sir. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: And you mentioned kitchen. 7 The -- indeed, the restroom in the kitchen was the site 8 of sex going on between a -- 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: A cook. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: -- contract cook and several 11 inmates, isn't that correct? 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's correct. That 13 was in 1999. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. I was there for 16 that. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: And what was done to -- in 18 light of that, or after that, to prevent that? 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Later, they initiated 20 cameras in there, but it's still considered a blind 21 spot. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, they put a camera in the 87 1 kitchen -- 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: -- but they don't have a 4 camera in the bathroom, obviously, right? 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No. 6 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No. 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: They use that strictly 8 for employees now. There still hasn't been anything 9 that really targeted that, that area. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. The camera can see 11 somebody going in to the restroom. 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Just -- yes. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Could see somebody going into 14 the dry storage unit, but can't see what's going on in 15 there. 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's correct. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: There is no window on the 18 restroom, obviously. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: There is on window in the -- I 22 don't remember, is there a window on the door to the 88 1 dry storage room? 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No. 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Sir, there is not. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. So, these are some 5 of the prime vulnerable blind spots where, if you were 6 a predator, this is where you would want to do it. 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 8 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Could be a spot, yes. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Any other places that come to 10 mind? 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Work release would be 12 another -- 13 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- another area. It is 15 designed -- it's been set up just pretty much like the 16 change-out area in booking. It would be the same way. 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: There is intercoms, but 19 the visibility is definitely hampered. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: And that's the room where 21 there is a locker room right next to it, right? 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 89 1 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's the work release 3 area, yes. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: So these guys change out, they 5 strip down -- 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Sir -- 7 MR. MCFARLAND: -- there is no window on the 8 door. There is an intercom, but unless somebody calls 9 in there and says, "Is anything going on," they could 10 have 10, 15 minutes alone in the showers. 11 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's true, yes. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: And is a correctional officer 14 with them when they are changing out? 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. So that's kind of 18 an invitation for staff misconduct, there. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, it is. 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, it is. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Is there cross-gender 22 supervision in the change-out room? 90 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No. 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: In the change-out room? 3 No. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: All right, so it's just 5 male-on-male -- 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Female-to-female. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Female -- all right. You have 8 female work release? 9 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: On occasion. 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Not very -- yes, very 11 rarely. 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Any more, yes. 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: A school release or work 15 release, yes. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: And let me ask you about the G 17 and H units. You've got, what, 120 beds in there? 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: And they are double-bunked? 21 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Some. G block was 22 double-bunked. 91 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. So -- 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: H block was -- 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: H is a combination, 4 mostly single beds. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. So -- and there is one 6 officer at the desk for all 120 inmates? 7 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Sometimes two. 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Sometimes -- 9 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: On my shift, I try to have 10 two down there at all times. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And what's the -- the 12 second one sits at the desk, as well? 13 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay, so you've got two. From 15 that desk, you cannot see anything going on that might 16 be going on in the toilet and shower area of H unit, is 17 that correct? 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. You can have 19 somewhat of a sight on the G block. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 21 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Very limited. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Partial sight into the showers 92 1 or the bathroom area of G. 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Nothing in H? 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: You can see very little of 5 H showers, just a small, small area. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: And these guys -- excuse me, 7 the officers are not roving around the G and H unit? 8 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: On my shift -- on both 9 shifts -- we do walk-throughs. On my shift we do box 10 checks, bed checks, just to get up to officer presence 11 throughout the block, to try to prevent anything 12 that's -- smoking is our big thing, you know? 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So they're looking for 14 smoking? 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Oh, yes, they're looking 16 everywhere for, I mean, anything. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Any contraband. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Or someone staying in 21 the bathroom a little too long, or you see the same 22 person going back and forth, they get up and check it 93 1 out. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: But there are 120 males in 3 there. It's kind of hard to keep track of who has been 4 in there a long time, isn't it? 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Well, in ours -- for 7 his, it is. They have a lot of activity on afternoon 8 shift. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. Everybody is 10 asleep on yours. 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. Well, perfect 12 world -- 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Theoretically. 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. But -- 15 MR. MCFARLAND: And they're double-bunked in 16 G. So that blocks the CO's view of 60 or more inmates, 17 isn't that correct? 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's correct. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: I mean, matter of fact, there 20 is a half-wall that blocks his view, or her view, of 21 any of the bottom bunks -- 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Some of the bottom bunks, 94 1 yes. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: -- in G, or a lot of the 3 bottom bunks. 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Oh, yes. We actually 6 have inmates that will low crawl over -- underneath the 7 beds, in order to thieve from another box. I mean, 8 it's -- 9 MR. MCFARLAND: I'm sorry, I didn't 10 understand. 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: They will crawl 12 underneath their beds in the G block area -- but you're 13 referring to that wall, so it would be hidden from the 14 staff -- so that they could steal from another inmate. 15 You know, it's common practice. 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: We do have -- 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's why we -- 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: We have talked to the 19 warden about it, and we're going to elevate the minimum 20 desk -- 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh, all right. 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: -- itself, and I think that 95 1 would help -- 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: To go over -- 3 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: -- also with the line of 4 sight, especially with G block. Not so much in H, but 5 it would correct that problem, and also see over that 6 partition wall. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Now, do you get any kind of 8 classification, or any tips about, well, in 9 the -- "Here in the dorm you've got some inmates who 10 are higher risk, as sexual predators, or sexual 11 victims, so we should move them closer to that -- to 12 the desk to be a little" -- 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We try not to house the 14 sexual offenders -- most of those, we know who they 15 are, they've -- 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- been in the facility 18 a number of times. We try to house them in smaller 19 units. For one, too, for their own safety, because 20 they are usually targets themselves. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We have some that are 96 1 considered -- well, the term the inmates use -- are the 2 "baby rapers." They will say during booking, "Please 3 don't house me with the baby rapers." It gives you a 4 trigger, somebody is going to fight, you know. 5 I mean, there is -- we are limited to what we 6 can do, of where we can house these people. We are a 7 small facility, because you're trying to juggle the 8 sexual predators, the mental health people. We are 9 very limited on medical space. We have two medical 10 "iso" cells, and we need a whole -- 11 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It's not enough. 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: A lot more than that. 13 But it's just not possible, so -- 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Two medical isolation cells. 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: For five counties? 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: But we do do our best to 21 try to screen the sexual predators and move them, and 22 not in that general population down there. They are 97 1 down there, though. 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: There are some that, when 3 they come in, they will -- we advise them, "Do not" -- 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Discuss your -- 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: -- "discuss your charges, 6 do not discuss your case." 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 8 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: "Tell them you're here for 9 a DUI, or something." 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Lie. 11 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: But a lot of inmates will 12 make phone calls, and check on the Internet themselves 13 of what this person is in the jail for. 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: And word spreads pretty 15 quickly. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Are there any secrets in your 17 jail? 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No. No, Sir. 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Everybody has a secret, you 20 know. 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, but -- 22 MR. MCFARLAND: What you're in for, and 98 1 whether you are sexually active, whether you are 2 considered -- perceived to be a homosexual. All that 3 is common knowledge -- 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: -- inside of 24 hours. Isn't 6 that fair? 7 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It's fair to say that. 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 9 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, due to the small 10 communities. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: And you run into a lot of 12 folks that you know from the community, right? 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: I mean, both as staff, as well 15 as inmates. 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Family members -- 17 MR. MCFARLAND: You may have gone to high 18 school with them. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: People you went to 20 school with, yes. 21 MS. ELLIS: Oh, I'm sure. 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 99 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Small community. 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. And just the 3 revolving door, just the same inmate coming back time 4 after time. 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Over and over and over. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: You have a high recidivism 7 rate among -- 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir, we do. 9 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Very. 10 MS. ELLIS: Then what's the word on the 11 street, in terms of people who end up in your facility? 12 What do they anticipate? What do they expect? What 13 have they heard about what their stay will entail 14 there? Do they see it as a -- 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I have heard it's the 16 "Hilton on the Hill." 17 MS. ELLIS: Hilton on the Hill? Would that 18 refer to the safe keeping, the luxury surroundings, or 19 just a -- 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: That, and the food, the -- 21 MS. ELLIS: -- a name associated with it? 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: -- that we're not going 100 1 around and just, like, "Okay, you have to do this, you 2 have to do this, you have to do this," type of thing. 3 MS. ELLIS: Oh. 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It's kind of a laid 5 back -- but very firm on certain issues, yes. We don't 6 have the manpower -- what I'm trying to say is we don't 7 have the manpower to go in and do what we're supposed 8 to do, as shakedowns every day, to go in and have the 9 extra manpower to do extra walk-throughs, to do the 10 extra bed checks, do the extra cell checks, just do a 11 random pat-down. 12 MS. ELLIS: I see. 13 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: And we don't have the time. 14 We try to do as best we can with what we've got. 15 MS. CHUNN: Is it one of the newer facilities 16 in the area? 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am. 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It is considered -- yes. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Who are the contract staff? 21 What do you contract out, food? No, the food is made 22 -- is prepared there, right? 101 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir, it is. 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Matter of fact, it's 4 considered pretty good. 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Food and -- there really 6 isn't much that is contracted out. 7 MS. ELLIS: The Hilton -- 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Oh, you ate the food 9 there? 10 MR. MCFARLAND: No. 11 (Laughter.) 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It's not bad. 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: You must have been there 14 on a good day. 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, spaghetti. 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: The contracting, we have -- 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Commissary is contracted 19 out, but it's delivered inside. We don't have a lot 20 that is contracted out. 21 MS. CHUNN: Medical? 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Maybe I'm just not 102 1 understanding what you're -- 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, you have the mental 3 health three hours on a Thursday or Friday, or 4 something. 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: HRS? 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 7 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: HRS, I believe it's -- 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We have volunteers that 9 come in -- 10 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: And volunteers for -- 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- for our religious 12 programs, and things like that. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, what other programs do 14 you have? 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We have AA. 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: AA, HRS, NA -- 17 MR. MCFARLAND: What's HRS? 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Human resource -- 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Is that the life skills thing? 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, health recovery 103 1 services. 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Health recovery services. 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I'm sorry. 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: They have bible study. 5 They have -- 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: A lot of religious 7 programs. 8 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, there is a lot of 9 religious programs. 10 MS. ELLIS: Do you have any restorative 11 justice programs, the impact of crime? 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No. 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Ma'am. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Any -- well, you've got an 15 average stay of 10 days. Is there any kind of 16 vocational placement, or job placement? 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We do inmate 18 worker -- we have in-house work, yes, inmate worker 19 status, where they would be screened, if you 20 could -- and tested for TB and things. We have a 21 little bit of requirements. They have to be sentenced, 22 and they can work in the kitchen, or they could be 104 1 housekeeping, or laundry. 2 And if it's court ordered -- or they can also 3 be on the volunteer -- they -- we have GED classes, you 4 know, and things like that. They can apply to the 5 courts, if they qualify, and also have a work release 6 program. 7 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Or school release. 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Which is up to the -- or 9 school release -- 10 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Go to college. 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- which is up to the 12 judge, to decide that. So there is different things 13 available that they can do. 14 MS. CHUNN: If I am a detainee, and I feel 15 that I have been abused by a staff member or another 16 detainee, do I file a grievance? What do I do? 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Ma'am. You -- 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Like I said, you have 19 different avenues that you can take. We don't have 20 that, you know -- a bunch, but we have the grievance 21 procedure, we have the -- you can -- a letter, that's 22 used quite often, just handed to an officer, or handed 105 1 to an officer. You have the phones that you can use. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: These are the blue hotline 3 phones? 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, Sir. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: And they were installed when? 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Right after this, due to 7 this. So he -- 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Right after June? 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Warden Tolson has 10 started to implement changes already, so -- and it's 11 limited those that have access to that, which I think 12 is really great, so it keeps the anonymity -- 13 MS. CHUNN: So, I have a greater probability 14 of having my grievance received if I use the blue line, 15 the phone? 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I don't think so. It's 17 another way, it's another tool to use. I think I would 18 have enough credibility -- and I have proven myself 19 there -- that if an -- I am approachable. 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: And to any inmate in 22 there. 106 1 MS. CHUNN: Am I given any assurance, if I 2 give you this letter, that you won't just throw it in 3 the trash around the corner? 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: We receive a bunch of 5 frivolous grievances. 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Are they screened? Yes, 7 Ma'am, they are. 8 MS. CHUNN: Oh, I know they're screened. 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I mean -- 10 MS. CHUNN: But -- 11 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, the officers will look 12 at them. 13 MS. CHUNN: -- do I have an insurance that you 14 will even act on it? 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. I think that 16 is -- also comes into play our integrity, I think. You 17 know, for me it does. That's the only way I can answer 18 that. I have proven myself to the inmates, that I am 19 there for them. But, in the same respect, they do have 20 to do what I tell them to do, within the scope of the 21 position they're in. 22 But I do have that integrity, and they know I 107 1 do follow through with requests, I follow through with 2 passing on information that the inmate may need, 3 whether it be mental health, medical, or they need to 4 speak to an investigator of the outside agency, due to 5 part of their crime. They need to speak with an 6 investigator. 7 I -- there is a lot of different things that I 8 think it goes down to, and a lot of them are reluctant 9 to put it on paper. They do want that one-on-one 10 contact so they can say, "I told you." So I think that 11 goes -- it's a lot more important than something 12 written. And -- 13 MS. CHUNN: With all due respect, based on 14 your testimony here today, both of you, I believe you 15 do have that kind of integrity. 16 What concerns me is if you are out on medical 17 leave, or you get promoted, both of you, do I have any 18 assurance that that kind of value is going to be acted 19 on by any of the other staff there? 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. If they're using 21 -- in the paper form, if you want to have actual 22 physical -- there is a response that you can write on 108 1 there, "Your problem is being looked" -- you put your 2 response on there. You can do it privately -- 3 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It's also in triplicate, as 4 well. 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, it's in triplicate. 6 It goes to the chief of security -- that's where you're 7 going with that. 8 MS. CHUNN: Yes, thank you. 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Oh, I'm sorry, Ma'am. 10 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Oh, sorry. 11 MS. CHUNN: It took us a while to get there, 12 didn't it? 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, it did. You've got 14 to break it down for us right now. We're still 15 nervous, even after all this time, I'll tell you. 16 But there are avenues, yes. I'm sorry, that 17 that's what you meant -- 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, what is the procedure 19 for -- how is a request staff -- or formal complaint 20 supposed to be handled? 21 A guy -- the inmate goes to the CO, who is the 22 rover, when they come in once an hour, and says, "I 109 1 would like a grievance form?" Or, "I would like a 2 request for staff" -- 3 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: They usually ask for a 4 request form. 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: A request form? 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 8 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It's like an all-in-one 9 form. It has a request and grievance on the same form. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: All right, one form. 11 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It's a multi-purpose 13 form, it is. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Multi-purpose? 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: And does -- is the -- are your 17 officers supposed to ask why they want it? 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No. 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No. 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No. It's irrelevant, 21 why they want it. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. So they get the 110 1 form, they fill it out. What do they do with it, hand 2 it back to the CO? 3 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: They can either hand it 4 back to the CO, they can slide it through the door. 5 They can put it in a minimum -- they have a basket for 6 request forms that they can just go up and put it in. 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Sometimes, if it's a 8 sensitive nature, they fold it over, give it during the 9 breakfast pass tray -- 10 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- you know, where it's 12 discreetly given, and they will put right on there, "Do 13 not return this," because -- 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: "Don't respond." 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- they don't want, you 16 know, another inmate -- if they're informing on another 17 inmate, or it's a sensitive nature. I mean, there are 18 ways to get through -- 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, they don't go out -- 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- very discreetly. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: I'm sorry. 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Oh, that's okay. 111 1 MR. MCFARLAND: They don't go out of the unit 2 to eat, right? 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: The food is brought in? 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Food is brought in. 6 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: They eat in the day room. 8 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. And so, does the CO, 11 when he or she receives the grievance or request to 12 staff, are they supposed to acknowledge receipt, sign 13 it and date it, or -- 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: There is a response, your 15 response, date/time, signature, and unit number. 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Most of the time the 17 supervisors fill them out. 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Usually. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Unless they are just 20 simple requests, like, "What is my out date and my out 21 time?" 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 112 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: The booking officer will 2 answer those. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: But -- 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Most of the time it 5 usually goes to us. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: But does the CO who is 7 receiving the request date it, or -- 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Sir. 9 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: -- otherwise acknowledge that 11 they have received it? 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No. 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We have to go on blind 14 faith that they're going to give us that request, yes. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, and if they're part of -- 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: There is no failsafe on 17 that. It would -- 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Besides the inmate saying, 19 "Hey, I turned in a request form." 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: "I haven't got a response 113 1 yet, what's going on?" 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: There is no tracking of 3 that, from once it reaches the staff member's hands to 4 us. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: But if one of your staff says, 6 "I never got a request from this individual saying that 7 somebody was asking for a hand job every night," and 8 the inmate says, "You're lying, I sure did," who are 9 you going to believe? You're going to believe your 10 staff, right? 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We would hope, but -- 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Usually, yes. 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: There is no way to track 14 that, Sir, you -- 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. Well, what about this 16 idea? What -- you've already got it in 17 triplicate -- and I've talked to the warden about 18 this -- what if you had the officer receiving it 19 initial the time -- he or she is not acting on it or, 20 you know, judging it or anything, just saying, "Yes, 21 received," initials, and rips off one of the duplicate 22 copies, hands it back to the inmate. The inmate now 114 1 has proof that it was received, and who received it. 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's a good idea. 3 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, that's a great idea. 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I hadn't really thought 5 of it that way, to tell you the truth. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: And the other -- you still 7 have two copies. 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: To -- for your paperwork. 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's true. That would 11 be a good idea. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Now, I understand that 13 your -- you get a lot of frivolous requests. 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: And you don't exactly want 17 triplicates of, "I'd like my waffles not to be hard," 18 or something like that. 19 But, on the other hand, it protects you and 20 your staff, because if they say, "Hold it. I told 21 these people that I was getting raped on a nightly 22 basis, and they didn't do anything about it," you can 115 1 say, "It is our standard practice to always give back a 2 request copy, so where is it?" If they don't have it, 3 you've got some protection. Does that -- 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Absolutely. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: -- make some sense? 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It does. 7 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Absolutely, yes. 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Let me just -- we're going to 10 take a break here, shortly. I want to ask you, what's 11 your understanding of the -- what inmates are more 12 likely to be sexual assault perpetrators? What's the 13 profile? What are the common characteristics of a 14 sexual predator in your jail? When are flags, red 15 lights, going to go off for you? 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Past history would be the 17 big one, most obvious, I guess. 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: The crime, itself. Yes, 19 a lot of ours are -- we already -- 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Can you move up? 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I'm sorry. A lot 22 of -- it would be the criminal history, the age 116 1 bracket, like we -- matter of fact, I even -- I asked 2 earlier, because I couldn't really remember what it 3 was, and it was, on the average, about 25 to 35, and it 4 is white male. We have a white male population, 5 predominantly. 6 But a lot of ours is recidivism factor. It is 7 the same inmate consistently, over and over. I fear 8 more for the victim than I do for the predator. That's 9 even a huge -- much larger range, I think, that's more 10 susceptible to that, than actually the predators 11 themselves. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. What's -- are you 13 through with the predator, though? Are there any other 14 characteristics that -- of those who are more likely 15 than not, what's the profile of the sexual -- 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Those with mental health 17 issues -- 18 MR. MCFARLAND: As a predator, or as a victim? 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: As a predator. 20 MS. ELLIS: A predator? 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: You know, we -- which 22 goes to the fact that we have a lot of mental health -- 117 1 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: A vast -- 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Excuse me? 3 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: A vast amount of -- 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Oh, a vast amount that 5 you -- the unpredictability of them. You just don't 6 know, sometimes, what road they're going to take. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Is sexual orientation an issue 8 in being a predator? 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes and no. I don't 10 think that's a predominant one. Are you referring to 11 homosexuality? 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It's -- we have a lot 14 of -- we don't have a lot of homosexuals that come to 15 our facility. But the ones we do did not seem to be in 16 the aggressive nature. 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: They also make it known. 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, they make it very 19 clear. It's usually -- it's not that it's acceptable 20 in our facility, as far as the inmates, but they don't 21 seem to bother each other, for lack of a better term. 22 The "straight" inmates don't really have any problems 118 1 with the homosexuals in our facility. I haven't seen 2 that, anyway. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: There are -- 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I don't see a lot of 5 targets over that issue. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Are they asked their sexual 7 orientation at booking? 8 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No. 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, they are not. It 10 is -- 11 MR. MCFARLAND: How -- 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No. Some we have 13 had -- I have actually been in booking where they have 14 actually said, "Listen, I'm gay, and I'm scared," and 15 let out -- and, you know, and we have -- and some that 16 have been actually -- their mannerisms are so feminine, 17 that, really, you have to be on guard, also. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: So what, if anything, do you 19 do with -- when one of the inmates says that they are 20 gay, or they appear to be gay? 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I ask them if they're 22 uncomfortable. "Do you feel you're going to be 119 1 threatened in this facility?" It depends on 2 how -- what they say. If they say they want to be 3 protected, they're just scared in general, I try to 4 house them in an area where they can be isolated a 5 little bit. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Where would that be? 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Actually, since -- we 8 have D block, is protective custody, upstairs. And we 9 also -- I utilize booking a lot for midnight shift, 10 just because of the lack of space, just to get them 11 through court and pray that they're going to be 12 released. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. Now, protective custody 14 just has three single cells. 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir, it does. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: So we have to be really 18 careful. We still can utilize the other cells in D 19 block, that's the disciplinary block -- 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Also -- 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- for them, too. 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Also, we have utilized F 120 1 block. 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, for inmate worker 3 status. 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Inmate worker -- 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: In work release. 6 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: -- work release block, 7 because of -- they are "well behaved," be placed in 8 there. 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Less -- 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Have you ever seen a 11 protective custody inmate placed in the disciplinary 12 block? In other words, the PC area, those three cells 13 are filled, and so you placed a fourth protective 14 custody inmate in the disciplinary -- 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: It's right next to it. 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, there is one there 20 now, I believe. 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It's common practice, 22 yes. 121 1 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. Now, how do you 2 protect the PC individual from the bad actors that are 3 in discipline? 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: They're not -- 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: They're out one at a time. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. They're 23-hour lock 7 down, right? 8 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. They're out for a 9 shower. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: And now, so the individual who 11 is not in discipline, and indeed, just needs to be 12 protected, indeed, of -- perhaps a victim or a victim 13 waiting to happen, do they get locked down for 23 hours 14 if they're in the disciplinary -- 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No. They're -- they can 16 come in and out of their cell. They can go over to 17 the -- we call it the bubble, the D1, 2, and 3, the 18 administrative segregation, or protective custody. 19 They can go over there and watch TV, use the phone, 20 stuff like that. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: That would be a lot safer for 22 them. 122 1 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Because all the other folks in 3 his wing are potential predators, or they're there for 4 some disciplinary reason. 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: But they're all out one at 6 a time -- 7 MR. MCFARLAND: They are out one at a time, 8 but -- 9 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: -- in the bubble cell. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: But he is going to be spending 11 an hour with each one of them. 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Unless he goes into that small 14 little area with the three protective custody cells, 15 right? 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Mm-hmm. 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Which -- they're out one at 18 a time, as well. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Was that a "Yes?" I'm sorry, 20 Commander? 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am -- yes, Sir. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. I'm sorry? 123 1 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I'm sorry. They are out 2 one at a time, as well, the -- 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: -- ones that are in 1, 2, 5 and 3. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: And what are the 7 characteristics of the more -- those who are vulnerable 8 to sexual assault? What are you looking for? You have 9 alluded to some of these things. 10 What about sexual orientation? Somebody says, 11 "I'm gay." Are they going to be more at risk? 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 13 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: They could be, yes. 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: What about their physical 17 stature? Is that relevant? 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, it is. 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: We have a lot -- and 21 especially juveniles -- well, at least 18, 19-year-olds 22 that come in, they're small in stature, too. 124 1 First-time offenders. There is a lot of factors. 2 Just in how they carry themselves. If they 3 appear weak, you know, they fall prey. They 4 are -- also, their medical condition, their mental 5 health condition, also. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Are mentally ill -- 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: There is a lot of 8 mentally ill -- 9 MR. MCFARLAND: -- mentally ill inmates more 10 likely to be -- 11 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: And also, we have those 13 that are also mentally challenged, classified as 14 mentally retarded. 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Are they -- 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It still amazes me, to 18 this day, that they are in facilities like that, but 19 they are. We have to really be far more protective of 20 them. We keep them up, usually, in booking. 21 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, totally isolated from 22 population. 125 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: So we have a huge range 2 from completely mentally challenged to the psychotic. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: So you do have the additional 4 option -- in booking, you've got four or five cells 5 with big windows. 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Right in front of the 8 booking -- 9 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: A total of five, yes. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Five? 11 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: So, do you ever put 13 your -- the folks who need some special protection and 14 observation in some of those? 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: All the time. 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: All the time. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. So, if you have 18 the three PC cells in D block filled, is the next place 19 of choice the booking cells? 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: To protect them? 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It depends on what the 126 1 circumstance is. If they're there for a long period of 2 time, and they requested PC, due to their past 3 employment -- which we have one back there, now -- we 4 put him in, like, in D block. 5 If there is someone that is mentally ill, 6 somebody that is on a suicide watch, somebody that has 7 recently attempted cutting, or something like that, we 8 place those more severe right there, in front of us, 9 where the booking officer is at all times. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, but you put one of 11 the -- there was an elderly gentleman who was a suicide 12 watch. You put them in one of the two medical 13 isolation cells, right? 14 SERGEANT EASTERLING: In -- 15 MR. MCFARLAND: As you're walking by control 16 on your left -- 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: There have been persons 18 there on a suicide watch. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: So, for the long-term suicide 21 watches, that would be a place where you might put 22 them. 127 1 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: We could put them, yes. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: But there, nobody is watching 3 them unless a rover is walking by, is that correct? 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you have any case workers 6 who work in your office -- your facility? 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I -- 8 MR. MCFARLAND: So -- 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Are you talking about on 10 staff at all times? 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Oh, no, Sir. No. We're 13 it. 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: So you have your support staff 16 during the day, and you have your kitchen, and you've 17 got five or six COs, and a supervisor. 18 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's correct. 19 MS. CHUNN: Did I understand you to say that 20 you hold juveniles in your facility? 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am, as long as 22 they're bound over as an adult. 128 1 MS. CHUNN: Okay. 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, we also have 3 juveniles. They don't happen very often, but -- 4 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Two or three -- 5 MR. MCFARLAND: But they can be bound over 6 after age 16, or what? Or is it 18? Or do you know? 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, I think it 8 was -- yes, it was 16. 9 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: There was one that was 17. 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: And we had to completely 11 isolate from touch, and it really -- you have to shut 12 down the whole facility. There is a lot to do when a 13 juvenile enters. It's really -- 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: A separate booking, 15 separate -- 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 17 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: You can have no movement in 18 the hallways, the officers only. 19 MS. CHUNN: Sight and sound? 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: And movement, when are the 129 1 occasions for movement? You don't -- they're not going 2 out for their food, so their movement to recreation? 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Recreation, visits -- 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Going to the gym? 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- to their family, 6 visits for the attorneys. You have programs. 7 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: All the programs. 8 SERGEANT EASTERLING: They're still able to 9 have programs. We just have to make special 10 arrangements for them. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Are they cuffed when they're 12 out of their cell? 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It depends on the 14 individual. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh. 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Are you talking about 17 strictly the juveniles? 18 MR. MCFARLAND: No. 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Everybody? No, they're not 20 cuffed. 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, not everyone. No. 22 MS. CHUNN: I see. 130 1 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Unless there is a direct 2 order. 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 4 MS. CHUNN: Oh, I see. 5 MS. ELLIS: I would like to go back to the 6 characteristics associated with someone vulnerable to 7 sexual assault in your facility. And you named 8 several. Would those characteristics hold true for 9 female offenders, as well? Would you -- 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, I think it would 11 run for both sexes. You would still have the same -- 12 MS. ELLIS: Same types of characteristics that 13 you -- 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Just about, yes, yes. 15 MS. ELLIS: -- you've described, in terms of 16 size and first-time offender, and pretty 17 unsophisticated, in terms of jail life? 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 20 MS. ELLIS: Then could we talk a little bit 21 about staff, and staff who may be vulnerable to sexual 22 assault? Let's talk about what characterizes a staff 131 1 person, an individual working in your facility, who 2 might be vulnerable to sexual assault, and someone who 3 might also be a perpetrator of sexual assault. 4 What might that person look like, 5 characteristics? 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Aggressor? I would say 7 power. To overwhelm someone like that, to me, that's 8 no different than a rapist on the street. I think 9 that's a -- not a sexual -- that's more of a power 10 issue than of a sexual nature. 11 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It could be the same on 12 both sides of the fence, of staff or an inmate. 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 14 MS. ELLIS: So, in talking about a staff 15 perpetrator, you would attribute the same types of 16 characteristics? 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Mm-hmm. 18 MS. ELLIS: Someone who is aggressive? 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. Definitely 21 unstable. Why, in your right mind, would you -- 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Even hire him. 132 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. I mean -- 2 MS. ELLIS: Instability? 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Instability. 4 MS. ELLIS: You talked about size. 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Mm-hmm. 6 MS. ELLIS: You talked about lack of 7 information or knowledge about the jail system, and -- 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Is that a yes? 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 10 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 12 MS. ELLIS: You would attribute the same to a 13 staff person who really doesn't understand the policies 14 or the rules, or have any real understanding of the 15 mission and the purpose -- 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 17 MS. ELLIS: -- for being there? Those same 18 types of characteristics? 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, I would agree with 20 that. 21 MS. ELLIS: Well, what about the staff person 22 who falls prey to sexual assault? 133 1 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I'd say low self-esteem. 2 There could be a number of issues. Gullibility. I 3 mean, that's a huge factor, I think, in some of our 4 past misconducts -- 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Home life. 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- with some of our 7 officers, especially female. I think they were 8 believing -- what on earth possessed them to believe 9 the things, probably, that they did. 10 MS. ELLIS: The things they were hearing from 11 inmates? 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Hearing from the 13 inmates, that -- 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Inmates. 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. Maybe in a certain 16 sense, too, it was a power issue with them, so to 17 speak. 18 I don't -- you know, I don't really know. 19 I've never really sat down and thought about that. 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: So I don't want to keep 22 guessing on it, because that's pretty much what I'm 134 1 sitting here, doing. 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. I think -- 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Because I'm a strong 4 person -- 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: -- the home life, their 6 home life would be a -- 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- so I can't really put 8 myself in those shoes. I -- it boggles my mind when I 9 hear and see an officer doing it. So, to me, I have 10 very little compassion for a perpetrator that is a 11 staff member. But, yes, I do have more sympathy for a 12 victim of it. But I'm thinking, "What were you 13 expecting when you walked into this facility, in a job 14 like this?" 15 So I don't know. It's something I would have 16 to reflect on myself, but I don't think I could give 17 you a clear answer. 18 MS. ELLIS: Commander Zartman, you started 19 down the road of talking about home environment. 20 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 21 MS. ELLIS: Talk a little bit more about that. 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I think their home life, if 135 1 they are insecure, unhappy, maybe searching for 2 something else, and -- they're looking definitely in 3 the wrong spot, my opinion, being -- working at a 4 facility. 5 MS. ELLIS: So these might be factors that you 6 would want to be cognizant of. 7 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, Ma'am. 8 MS. ELLIS: You would want to, as supervisors, 9 in terms of viewing your staff, evaluating your staff, 10 selecting your staff, these are all indicators that you 11 would want to be on top of? 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes, Ma'am. 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: We are going to take a break. 15 There are a few more questions for this panel, but 16 let's take a 10-minute break, and we will start a 17 little bit before 11:00. 18 (A brief recess was taken.) 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Before we continue, the panel 20 wants to commemorate the significance of what happened 21 seven years ago on this date, this morning. So we are 22 going to take a few moments of silence to remember 136 1 those who lost their lives, those who gave their lives 2 trying to save lives, and all those who have served our 3 country since then, as a result of the events of 9/11. 4 So, let us have a few moments of silence. And 5 we should stand. 6 (A moment of silence was observed.) 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Thank you. Commander Zartman, 8 is sex between staff and inmate -- if it's consensual, 9 if it's agreed upon -- is that all right in your 10 facility? 11 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: In my opinion, no. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: What's your -- 13 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: In the facility, it's a 14 zero tolerance, either staff on inmate, or inmate on 15 inmate. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Well, but -- so is 17 there -- is consensual sexual activity or contact 18 permissible, or does that violate a rule? 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: It violates. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. And is that a 21 crime? 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 137 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Have you ever seen it 2 prosecuted? 3 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No, Sir. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: And I believe, Commander 5 Easterling, you testified early on that there were 6 incidents of staff misconduct of a sexual nature. 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: And they were allowed to 9 resign? 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Unfortunately, Sir, yes. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: So there would have been 12 crimes that could have been prosecuted that were not? 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: I understand that your jail 15 does not do the transport to and from the facility. Is 16 that right? 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Just recently -- 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Recently, yes. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: -- we have been doing 20 substituting for one of our major counties, Athens 21 County, due to their lack of staff. 22 But, as a rule, no, we don't transport for 138 1 court. We just do for medical, though, for medical 2 reasons, going to hospital trips, dentist visits, and 3 things like that. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Sometimes to other 6 facilities for transports. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you observe the vans or the 8 vehicles when they come in and they leave your facility 9 on occasion? 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 11 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Commander Zartman? Do 13 you -- during the midnight shift is there -- are there 14 transports coming in? 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. Conlink, it's one 16 of the transportation teams that will bring prisoners 17 from other states in through the night. But our court 18 usually is in the morning time, and our shift overlaps, 19 so we are privy to that at the same time. So -- but -- 20 MR. MCFARLAND: And, Commander Zartman, are 21 there transports through the afternoon shift? 22 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: On my shift, they're coming 139 1 back from court. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, okay. And when you see 3 them leaving, or coming in, or coming out, are male and 4 female inmates sometimes in the same vehicle? 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Are they always vans, or are 7 there police cars sometimes, sheriffs' vehicles? 8 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: They come in cruisers, as 9 well. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Cruisers. And have you ever 11 seen male and female inmates in the back seat of the 12 same cruiser? 13 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No, I usually see -- the 14 female usually sits in the front, and then -- unless 15 there is two females, then the two females would be in 16 the back, and the one male would be in the front, or 17 vice versa. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Are -- 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I have seen them mixed. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: You have seen them mixed? 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I have seen them mixed, 22 yes. 140 1 MR. MCFARLAND: In the back seat? 2 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And are they cuffed 4 when they're transported? 5 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 6 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: We have had some. I mean, 7 it's very rare, that come in with no handcuffs on. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Are there certain counties 9 that are more relaxed about cuffing during transport 10 than others? 11 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: The ones that I have seen 12 has been Athens that have not been handcuffed, that I 13 can recall. I'm sure there have been other -- since we 14 do house for five counties, and we have contracted 15 counties, as well. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Is pornography allowed in your 17 facility? 18 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No. 19 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: What about nudity that has 21 been sketched or drawn by an inmate, is that allowed? 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: As long as it's not 141 1 posted, or put up on a wall. I'm not going to go 2 through their private drawings, and things like that. 3 As long as they're not publicly displaying them, I 4 don't feel that that's inappropriate. 5 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: On my shift, we will -- if 6 we do a cell check, box checks, if we see something 7 that is pornographic, we usually take it and put it 8 into their property bags. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: So, it varies from shift to 10 shift, then, as to how you handle private drawings? 11 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Mm-hmm. 12 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. But photographs, 14 magazines, those things are prohibited? 15 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Correct. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Isn't it true that, 18 even if they're hand-drawn, porn can be a -- because 19 it's of some value to some inmates, can become 20 contraband? Is that correct? 21 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Correct. 22 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Mm-hmm. 142 1 MS. ELLIS: This is a question for both of 2 you. What would your officers do if they chanced upon 3 two inmates engaging in sex, sexual acts? 4 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Well, they would tell 5 them to stop, and then begin to separate them. One 6 would stay where they were at, probably, and then the 7 other would be moved to another housing area. And then 8 the investigation would begin. 9 And whether or not it was truly consensual or 10 not, you're just assuming it's consensual, when you 11 walk in on them. You don't know that at that time. So 12 we would have to start an investigation, also. 13 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: I would add to that would 14 be I'm pretty positive that my shift would call me -- 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Oh, yes. 16 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: -- back there, immediately. 17 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: What difference would it make 19 if it was consensual or not? 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: It would -- on whether 21 an outside agency -- whether it would be actually a 22 crime that would be outside the facility -- we would 143 1 press charges if it would be a sexual assault versus a 2 consensual would be more in-house charges on them, 3 where they would be -- have disciplinary action. That 4 would be the difference, in my eyes, so -- 5 MR. MCFARLAND: So it is your understanding 6 that a prosecutor is not going to prosecute for -- 7 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Consensual sex? No, 8 Sir. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: In the facility? 10 SERGEANT EASTERLING: That's correct. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I don't think it's ever 13 been approached to them. 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: No. 15 SERGEANT EASTERLING: But I don't think that 16 they would follow through with something like that, 17 quite frankly. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Have you ever talked with the 19 Nelsonville Police Department or the Athens County 20 prosecutor, or any of the other -- 21 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Myself, I haven't. I 22 can't speak for Warden Tolson, if he's ever brought 144 1 that issue up. 2 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Yes. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, okay. Well, Commanders, 4 thank you very much. We do not have any more 5 questions. 6 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Thank you. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: I can tell you're 8 disappointed. 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Sir. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: We can make up some more, if 11 you would like to stay. 12 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Sir. I would like 13 to sightsee today, Sir, if that's possible. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, you're going to wait for 15 the rest of your -- 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: No, Sir, I'm not. I'm 17 bailing out. 18 MS. ELLIS: You're going to be here and 19 support your colleagues. 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: I love them, but I'm 21 going to bail. 22 MS. CHUNN: Let me say this before you go. 145 1 You have made this a lot easier for this panel than it 2 could have been. 3 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Thank you. 4 MS. CHUNN: Because you have been very 5 forthcoming and very truthful. And because we have 6 varying degrees of experience in this work, you know 7 that sometimes we know. And it makes it easier when we 8 can be assured that you respect the oath that you took. 9 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Yes, Ma'am. We do. 10 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: We do. 11 MS. CHUNN: This is to help not only your 12 facility, but lots of people across the country. 13 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Thank you. 14 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Thank you. 15 (Pause.) 16 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Sir, can we go now? 17 MS. ELLIS: Okay. Thank you very much, again, 18 for your cooperation. 19 SERGEANT ZARTMAN: Thank you. 20 SERGEANT EASTERLING: Thank you. 21 (Panelists step down.) 22 MR. MCFARLAND: The next panel will be Ms. 146 1 Lisa Rhodes. And I would like to ask James Conrath if 2 he would join Nurse Rhodes on the second panel. 3 (A brief recess was taken.) 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Good morning. Would you raise 5 your right hand? 6 Whereupon, 7 LISA RHODES 8 JAMES CONRATH 9 were called as witnesses and, having been 10 first duly sworn, were examined and testified as 11 follows: 12 EXAMINATION 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Thank you. Would you please 14 state your full name and title, and what -- how long 15 you have worked at SEORJ? 16 MS. RHODES: My name is Lisa Ann Rhodes, and I 17 have worked there for approximately nine-and-a-half 18 years. I started at the facility about two months 19 after they opened up, in 1998. 20 I did leave when I got my RN degree, and went 21 and tried another career, and I ended up coming back as 22 the nursing supervisor. They hired me back as the 147 1 supervisor, because the supervisor at the time left. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: When did you become the 3 nursing supervisor? 4 MS. RHODES: I believe that was around 2003, 5 when I came back to the facility. I started there as 6 an LPN. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Mr. Conrath? 8 MR. CONRATH: James Conrath. I've been with 9 the Southeastern Ohio Regional Jail since 2003. I was 10 hired in July as a food service director there. In 11 October 2007 I applied for and attained the position of 12 the administrative assistant/investigator for the 13 facility, which is the position I hold at this present 14 time. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So both of you have 16 been in the facility continuously since 2003, is that 17 right? 18 MS. RHODES: Yes. 19 MR. CONRATH: Yes, Sir. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And one thing, 21 just -- I should have mentioned earlier. For the 22 record, it would be helpful if you try to not only 148 1 speak up, but also not run over one another's answers. 2 So just make sure the other person has finished their 3 sentence before you chime in. 4 Mr. Conrath, would you tell the panel what 5 training you have had in investigations of any kind? 6 MR. CONRATH: As I've told you before, I am 7 very new at this position. I just -- it was a position 8 that the warden created for the sole purpose of having 9 an investigator for the facility, someone who could be 10 biased, wasn't in the chain of command. 11 I have taken an OPOTA training class, a Peace 12 Office Training Association, so far on background 13 investigations. I have -- most of my investigations, 14 or my training for investigations, has come in-house, 15 mostly from Warden Tolson, himself. I do have lined up 16 three other classes at this present time. None of them 17 are sexual assault, but it is something that we're 18 looking into, getting into training purposes. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 20 MS. ELLIS: I wasn't sure I heard the source 21 of your training when you first began to explain your 22 level of training, Sir. 149 1 MR. CONRATH: Well, I -- most of my training 2 is internal. And Warden Tolson has trained me mostly 3 on my investigations. I have taken a class in 4 background investigations that I have completed, and I 5 have two other classes at this present time lined up. 6 One is in October and one is in December. 7 MS. ELLIS: I see. What is the role of an 8 administrative assistant? 9 MR. CONRATH: My main job is to -- I work for 10 the warden. I basically -- I am his assistant. And 11 that could be helping him with policies, helping just, 12 in general, with the stuff he needs to run the 13 facility. 14 I also am assigned by him to investigate 15 internal affairs in the facility. Anything he would 16 assign to me to investigate I would look into for him, 17 and report directly to him. 18 MS. ELLIS: Have you investigated any of the 19 sexual assaults? 20 MR. CONRATH: I have not, Ma'am. 21 MS. ELLIS: So you have not had any experience 22 along those lines -- 150 1 MR. CONRATH: No, Ma'am, I have not. 2 MS. ELLIS: -- and you indicate that you have 3 some training lined up. 4 MR. CONRATH: Yes, Ma'am. 5 MS. ELLIS: Where are you looking for that 6 training, and -- 7 MR. CONRATH: The training is through our Ohio 8 Peace Officers Training Academy. 9 MS. ELLIS: I see. 10 MR. CONRATH: They are -- and we're also 11 looking -- we don't know exactly where, because I have 12 just been assigned to look into it -- for, like, PREA 13 training, where the sexual assault and certain things 14 like that -- but right now there is no -- nothing lined 15 up for sexual assaults. 16 MS. ELLIS: Do you have a good relationship 17 with surrounding police jurisdictions? 18 MR. CONRATH: I am obtaining that. How is 19 that? 20 MS. ELLIS: You're working -- 21 MR. CONRATH: I mean, I'm fairly new at the 22 job, so I am learning stuff as I go. I learn something 151 1 new every day I come to work. 2 You know, you meet people, and you get -- and 3 you start relating to them, and they start -- talking 4 to them, and then you start finding out stuff and 5 learning stuff. And I feel I am getting better at my 6 job as I do it, every day. 7 MS. ELLIS: Well, the surrounding police 8 jurisdictions, no doubt, have special units trained to 9 conduct the sexual assault investigations. 10 MR. CONRATH: Yes, Ma'am. 11 MS. ELLIS: And would, no doubt, be very open 12 to sharing their expertise with you. Just one 13 possibility among the many -- 14 MR. CONRATH: Yes. 15 MS. ELLIS: -- that are available. 16 MR. CONRATH: I have been introduced to, you 17 know, other investigators from other law enforcement 18 agencies, and stuff like that, and spoke with them, 19 basically just to get acquainted with them, because I 20 know I'm going to have to use their services at one 21 time or another. 22 MS. ELLIS: You will have to develop some 152 1 level of expertise -- 2 MR. CONRATH: Correct. 3 MS. ELLIS: -- in performing these 4 investigations. 5 How do you accept this challenge, in terms of 6 what it takes to be very, very effective in this 7 position? It's going to be very challenging -- 8 MR. CONRATH: Yes, very -- 9 MS. ELLIS: -- along certain lines, 10 particularly given the reputation of your institution. 11 MR. CONRATH: Correct, yes. It is 12 challenging. I am dealing with inmates, and they don't 13 always want to tell you the exact thing, what's going 14 on. They don't want to give you all the information. 15 They want you to dig a little bit for it. 16 That happens with employees, too. Either/or, 17 it doesn't really matter. So, I mean, there is always 18 a challenge to it, if that's the question you're asking 19 me. 20 MS. ELLIS: Yes, and -- 21 MR. CONRATH: And, you know -- 22 MS. ELLIS: And before you took on the role of 153 1 the assistant to the warden, and before you accepted 2 the new position as the investigator, what did you say 3 your experience was? 4 MR. CONRATH: I was the food service director 5 for the facility. I was the -- I did all the ordering 6 for the kitchen, I helped hire the staff down there, 7 and supervised the staff and the inmate workers at the 8 facility. 9 MS. ELLIS: I see. Okay, thank you. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Ms. Rhodes, do you participate 11 in the -- in any aspect of booking or screening? 12 MS. RHODES: I sign off on the medical 13 screens, but I do not go out and actually ask the 14 questions. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So the booking officers 16 do that. 17 MS. RHODES: Yes. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: And then you review them? 19 MS. RHODES: Yes. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Are those checklists 21 that the booking officers use regarding medical 22 conditions -- are there any questions on it about 154 1 whether the inmate has been sexually abused in the 2 past? 3 MS. RHODES: No. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Anything about whether they 5 have been involved in a sexual assault? 6 MS. RHODES: No. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Anything that would tip you 8 off, in your professional opinion, that they might be 9 higher risk of being a perpetrator or a victim of 10 sexual assault? 11 MS. RHODES: Maybe just the mental health part 12 of it, but I really don't rely on those booking screens 13 very much, because a lot of them are booked in when 14 they're still under the influence. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So what do you do, if 16 anything, to determine whether someone might be at risk 17 of sexual assault, if you can't rely on the -- so much 18 on the booking? 19 MS. RHODES: It would just have -- it would 20 take the inmate actually requesting to see the medical 21 staff. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So when you say you 155 1 sign off on the booking medical sheet, what are 2 you -- what does that entail? What are you looking 3 for? 4 MS. RHODES: We look for life-threatening 5 conditions like diabetes, high blood pressure. If they 6 say they're on medications, and they don't have the 7 medications in the facility, we try to get their 8 medical records to make sure they're getting their 9 medication. That's the biggest part, is the 10 medication. 11 MR. CONRATH: Sure. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: And there are no records that 13 you're provided that address sexual orientation, I take 14 it? 15 MS. RHODES: No. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Or sexual activity? 17 MS. RHODES: No. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: What about STDs? 19 MS. RHODES: That is one of the questions on 20 the booking screen. I'm not sure how honestly the 21 inmates answer those. A lot of times they will just 22 fill out a request form to see the doctor. 156 1 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. So they don't 2 exactly want to tell the booking officer that they have 3 herpes, so they're going to ask to see the nurse. 4 MS. RHODES: Not always, yes. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. And when they see 6 you, do you come to their housing unit, or do you -- do 7 they need to be brought to you? 8 MS. RHODES: It depends on what they're asking 9 to be seen for. If it's anything that is discreet, or 10 we would need to examine them, they are brought to the 11 medical room. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And are they brought by 13 a CO? 14 MS. RHODES: Yes. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Does the CO stay with you in 16 the exam room? 17 MS. RHODES: Yes. If there is -- if it's just 18 one nurse in there. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. 20 MS. RHODES: Because I also have the 21 correction officer training, so I am able to transport 22 the inmates from block to block. 157 1 MR. MCFARLAND: All right, so -- that's right. 2 You were a correctional officer before you were an RN? 3 MS. RHODES: No. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: No? 5 MS. RHODES: The warden prior to Warden Tolson 6 wanted the medical staff trained as a correction 7 officer, just so we could go and get the inmates 8 ourselves, if we needed to. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: I see. Okay. You have a 10 physician who visits the facility, is that right? 11 MS. RHODES: Yes, once a week. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: And how many hours? 13 MS. RHODES: It just depends on how many 14 inmates we have for him to see. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 16 MS. RHODES: There is no set hours. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: And you will be in the 18 physician's examination room all the time that he is 19 examining inmates, right? 20 MS. RHODES: Yes. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: So the physician is never 22 alone with an inmate. 158 1 MS. RHODES: No. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: And you're never alone with an 3 inmate. 4 MS. RHODES: No. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Because you have a separate CO 6 come to the exam room, even though you can escort them? 7 MS. RHODES: Yes. I refuse to be in there by 8 myself with an inmate. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Have you ever run into 10 an awkward situation? Has an inmate ever come on to 11 you? 12 MS. RHODES: No, not in that manner. It's 13 more of a calling me names for not giving them the 14 right medication that they want. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh, all right. So not a whole 16 lot of sexual or romantic overtures? 17 MS. RHODES: No. I am not well liked. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 19 MS. ELLIS: I would like to ask about 20 transgenders, when they come through and may be on meds 21 during their transition period. Do you make any 22 special allowances for that population? 159 1 MS. RHODES: I have not ever had to deal with 2 that, Ma'am. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Is -- and I'm sorry if you 4 already answered this, but do you have any information 5 on the sexual orientation of inmates? 6 MS. RHODES: No. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So, unless they 8 volunteer it, you don't know. 9 MS. RHODES: No. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: You don't ask. 11 MS. RHODES: No. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And nobody in booking 13 asks? 14 MS. RHODES: No. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And none of the forms 16 or information or files that you might get from the 17 transferring court or other institution indicate sexual 18 orientation or activity, is that correct? 19 MS. RHODES: I have never seen anything, no. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Now, do you have an 21 obligation to -- well, what do you understand your duty 22 to be if an inmate confides in you that they have 160 1 committed a sexual assault, or they have been the 2 victim of one? 3 MS. RHODES: What would I do? 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 5 MS. RHODES: I would immediately have a rover 6 go and pull them out of the block that they are in, and 7 I would report it to the sergeant, so that they could 8 report it further. 9 If they need medical assistance, though, we 10 would make sure -- we would have to send them out to 11 the hospital for that. I would call the jail physician 12 to get an order for that. 13 I told you, when you were in our facility, we 14 have -- our closest hospital, they do not have a SANE 15 nurse, but O'Bleness and Hocking Valley do, which is 16 only within a 15-minute transport. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: And a SANE nurse is a sexual 18 assault nurse examiner, right? 19 MS. RHODES: Yes. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: So they know how to administer 21 a rape kit. 22 MS. RHODES: Yes. 161 1 MR. MCFARLAND: And you do not have rape kits? 2 MS. RHODES: No. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. Have you ever 4 administered any forensic examination? 5 MS. RHODES: No. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Now, how does this duty 7 to report that you just described jive with your 8 obligation, as a medical professional, to protect the 9 confidences of your patient? 10 MS. RHODES: I believe it is -- we have to 11 report it. I mean, we keep it as confidential as we 12 can, but it's something that just has to be reported. 13 It's like the child abuse, when they go through the 14 ERs. 15 MS. CHUNN: Has the detainee ever tried to 16 share any information with you about sexual 17 inappropriate behavior -- 18 MS. RHODES: Not with me. 19 MS. CHUNN: -- within the facility? 20 MS. RHODES: Never. 21 MS. CHUNN: No one has ever -- 22 MS. RHODES: Never. 162 1 MS. CHUNN: Is that because you're not liked? 2 MS. RHODES: I don't think so. I'm not sure. 3 The whole medical department, we have never received 4 any requests like that. So I don't know if it just 5 goes to the officers, but we have never received any 6 requests. 7 MS. CHUNN: And you're not being liked, again, 8 has much more to do with your unwillingness to -- 9 MS. RHODES: I do my job. 10 MS. CHUNN: Okay, okay. All right. So it's 11 not that you're not a -- 12 MS. RHODES: And I am very consistent. 13 MS. CHUNN: And it's not that you're not 14 approachable? 15 MS. RHODES: No. 16 MS. CHUNN: Okay. 17 MS. RHODES: I am very approachable. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Just to keep the record clear, 19 would you please make sure that the question has been 20 completed, before you start answering? 21 MS. RHODES: Yes. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Even if you think you know 163 1 what the question is? 2 MS. RHODES: Yes. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Thanks. I don't 4 know -- remember if, Ms. Rhodes, if you were asked 5 this. Have you had any training in sexual assault 6 prevention or investigation? 7 MS. RHODES: No. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 9 MS. ELLIS: Ms. Rhodes, is that type of 10 training something that you would be open to? 11 MS. RHODES: Absolutely. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Mr. Conrath, since you have 13 been in your investigator position since -- in the last 14 11 months, have there been any reports of inmate on 15 inmate sexual assault? 16 MR. CONRATH: No, Sir. There have not been 17 any reports, no inmate on inmate, staff on inmate. No 18 reports of sexual assault since I've been in that 19 position. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Do you think it happens 21 at your facility? 22 MR. CONRATH: Absolutely. 164 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Which? Staff on inmate, or 2 inmate on -- 3 MR. CONRATH: Probably both, you know. Like I 4 said, I wasn't in this position on some of the 5 past -- what the commanders were talking about, with 6 staff sexual misconduct that was occurring. So we 7 would be, you know, fools to believe that, you know, 8 it's happened in the past, and it is not going to 9 happen now. 10 But you know, I think the mentality there is 11 to -- with -- under the new regime we're under is to 12 make sure that doesn't happen, make sure that when it 13 does happen, that we prosecute and we go after, so we 14 can send a message that it shouldn't happen. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Go ahead. 16 MS. ELLIS: Sir? 17 MR. CONRATH: Yes? 18 MS. ELLIS: Why do you think the sexual 19 assault is not reported? 20 MR. CONRATH: Probably fear of maybe, you 21 know, a kick-back on them, fear that they're going to 22 get in trouble for reporting it. Shame, maybe they're 165 1 just embarrassed that it happened to them. And maybe 2 they just feel like we won't do anything about it. 3 Maybe they just think the officers or -- nobody cares, 4 you know, you're in jail so nobody cares, so -- 5 MS. ELLIS: On the fear aspect, would that be 6 fear of retaliation? 7 MR. CONRATH: Yes, fear of -- 8 MS. ELLIS: From inmates? 9 MR. CONRATH: Maybe the predator would, you 10 know, be worse on him, or maybe if he just -- you know, 11 maybe that fear of just -- maybe if I just don't say 12 anything, he will just leave me alone. He will go on 13 to somebody else. 14 MS. ELLIS: What about fear of the system, 15 that -- 16 MR. CONRATH: Sure. 17 MS. ELLIS: -- that there may be some 18 repercussions, as far as staff are concerned? 19 MR. CONRATH: Sure, sure. I mean, staff 20 or -- you know, when I was meaning a predator, I was 21 meaning either/or. You know, staff have a lot of 22 power. You have a lot of power over the inmates in the 166 1 facility. And the inmate could be afraid of that, be 2 in fear of his life for that reason. 3 MS. ELLIS: I think those are three very real 4 issues which you have presented: the shame, of course, 5 in reporting; and the fear on both accounts; and also 6 the idea that nothing will happen, that there will be 7 no follow-through, that the situation will not be 8 addressed. 9 MR. CONRATH: Yes, Ma'am. And that's part of 10 why I think that my position was created, so something 11 could get addressed on that matter, you know, to not 12 let so much stuff fall through the cracks, actually 13 open some eyes maybe, and find some answers. 14 MS. ELLIS: Ms. Rhodes, from your vantage 15 point, would you agree? 16 MS. RHODES: I agree, yes. 17 MS. ELLIS: That those may be reasons why 18 reports are not made, that, admittedly, sexual assaults 19 do occur in the facility, but we don't see very much 20 indication that they're being reported? 21 MS. RHODES: Absolutely. 22 MR. CONRATH: We see none. I mean, I was the 167 1 one that actually gathered the information on -- for 2 the panel to give to you guys. And it was 3 just -- there was nothing there, there was no reports. 4 Compared to the survey, the victimization survey that 5 came out, we didn't have any reports on it at all. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: How would you characterize the 7 atmosphere prior to Warden Tolson taking over, as far 8 as sexual assault was concerned? Was this a high 9 priority for his predecessor? 10 MR. CONRATH: I don't think so. I mean, it is 11 record that -- why he resigned was for a -- well, 12 sexual harassment. So I don't feel like it was a high 13 priority in that regime. 14 You know, the morale at the time was a lot 15 lower, and the fact that you felt like you couldn't 16 trust him, that you weren't getting told the truth, you 17 didn't know what was going on -- so I wouldn't 18 reiterate what, you know, Sergeant Easterling said, but 19 it's pretty close to it, so -- 20 MR. MCFARLAND: And so, needless to say, until 21 this report came out, sexual assault -- staff on inmate 22 or inmate on inmate -- was not on the radar screen at 168 1 your facility. 2 MR. CONRATH: It was not on the radar screen, 3 mostly because we didn't have any reports on it. So -- 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 5 MR. CONRATH: I mean it wasn't something that 6 we didn't think about, you know, it wasn't something 7 that our officers weren't looking out for. But it was 8 not reported, so you probably don't -- 9 MR. MCFARLAND: But did you get the idea from 10 the previous warden that you would get canned if you 11 didn't report it, if you saw something and you didn't 12 report it? 13 MR. CONRATH: No, Sir. I didn't get that 14 idea. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: It wasn't a high priority. 16 The message was very clear from the top down, "There 17 are important things, and sexual assault is not one of 18 them." 19 MR. CONRATH: Yes, Sir. I never heard him say 20 that sexual assault was a high priority. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Did he -- in any of your job 22 reviews, for either one of you, was there any 169 1 discussion or any -- at any post briefing or staff 2 meeting, did the prior warden ever say, "Now, among the 3 other -- your jobs, one of them is prevent sexual 4 assault?" 5 MS. RHODES: No. 6 MR. CONRATH: No. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 8 MS. CHUNN: How much of what happens in the 9 facility is communicated to the surrounding community? 10 MS. RHODES: What's your question? 11 MS. CHUNN: How much of what happens in the 12 facility is communicated to the surrounding community? 13 I know, generally speaking, I think it's already been 14 stated that there are few secrets in the facility, 15 itself. But does what happens in the facility stay in 16 the facility, or does it filter into the community? 17 MR. CONRATH: From my experience, it gets to 18 the community. You know, it's a small community, 19 people work around each other. It will -- people will 20 come into the facility, and then they take their 21 stories back. 22 Now, granted, it doesn't always come back as 170 1 the correct story -- 2 MS. CHUNN: Right. 3 MR. CONRATH: But they do get -- it does get 4 out in the community, on things that happen at our 5 facility. 6 MS. CHUNN: Could that have some relationship 7 to why sexual assault would not be reported in the 8 facility? 9 MR. CONRATH: It could. I mean, you know, 10 like I said, you know, if that's what you're -- I guess 11 I'm not understanding the question. 12 MS. CHUNN: Yes, you have. You understood. 13 MR. CONRATH: Meaning, you know, that fear 14 factor -- 15 MS. CHUNN: Yes. 16 MR. CONRATH: -- could also come back in. 17 That shame, sure. 18 MS. CHUNN: Yes. 19 MR. CONRATH: Yes. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Mr. Conrath, as an 21 investigator -- and I realize you haven't had an actual 22 case to apply this, but -- what's your understanding of 171 1 how high the proof has to be, before you refer an 2 alleged sexual assault to authorities for prosecution, 3 for criminal prosecution? 4 MR. CONRATH: Well, and you know, I mean, if 5 there is any kind of proof at all, I mean, my first 6 goal would be to get in there and find out what I can, 7 gather all the evidence I can, and then I would let the 8 prosecutor make a decision on that, as far as whether 9 they wanted to prosecute, or if we had anything to go 10 on. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: So, is it your understanding 12 that you get all the information you can, and in every 13 case it is forwarded on to a prosecutor outside the 14 facility, or is that a call that the warden makes? 15 MR. CONRATH: I believe the warden would make 16 that call, but I'm just -- I'm not speaking for him. I 17 think that call would be made to the prosecutor. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: What's your understanding of 19 the characteristics of a sexual assault victim? 20 MR. CONRATH: Characteristics? 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. What's the profile? 22 What do they -- 172 1 MR. CONRATH: The victim? 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. Who is at a higher risk 3 for becoming a victim? 4 MR. CONRATH: In our facility, I mean, it 5 would probably be the younger kids. They probably have 6 some mental issues. Maybe first time in jail, maybe 7 smaller in stature. And in general, I'd just say, I 8 mean, somebody that is maybe not as intelligent, or 9 doesn't understand the ways of it, and seems 10 vulnerable, scared maybe. So -- 11 MR. MCFARLAND: What about sexual orientation, 12 or perceived sexual orientation, being effeminate, or 13 perceived to be? 14 MR. CONRATH: I don't know if -- like 15 homosexuality? I don't know if that would play a part 16 in it. I don't -- as far as being a victim -- 17 MS. RHODES: I believe it would play a big 18 part. It could go either way. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: They could be a perpetrator or 20 a victim? 21 MS. RHODES: Yes. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Indeed, a victim might become 173 1 a perpetrator. 2 MS. RHODES: Absolutely. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Did either of you have any 4 involvement with the one sexual assault reported in 5 2007, report number 07-0357? 6 MS. RHODES: No. 7 MR. CONRATH: No, Sir. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Mr. Conrath, if I told 9 you that there was a sexual assault somewhere in your 10 facility yesterday, where would you look? Where are 11 the most vulnerable areas? 12 MR. CONRATH: Well, like the panel before me 13 said, the bathrooms, the mop closets, the storage 14 closets, conference rooms, any place that was out of 15 sight, out of plain sight and out of camera range. 16 I mean, I do believe it could happen anywhere, 17 but if you were planning it you would probably want to 18 go in some place that was closed off from anybody else, 19 no windows: the bathroom and the kitchen. 20 MS. ELLIS: What about the laundry room? 21 MR. CONRATH: Sure, yes. The laundry room has 22 no cameras. You can see people going in it, but you 174 1 can't see them while they're inside the laundry room. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Isn't there a window into the 3 laundry room? 4 MR. CONRATH: Yes. Yes, it is all -- 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. There is not much space 6 behind the washers and dryers. 7 MR. CONRATH: No, there is not. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: But there is a door with -- 9 MR. CONRATH: There is a spot behind the 10 washer -- I'm sorry, Sir, but there is a spot right 11 there that goes off to the side that would be out of 12 sight, if you were just walking by, if you were tucked 13 down below, it -- 14 MR. MCFARLAND: There is also, behind some of 15 the machines, a door without a window that is for 16 maintaining those machines, right? 17 MR. CONRATH: Correct. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: And who has access to that 19 door? 20 MR. CONRATH: Any supervisor. Maintenance 21 guys, too, because they have to get into them. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, okay. 175 1 MS. ELLIS: Are there inmates that are on work 2 duty in -- during the night? 3 MR. CONRATH: Yes. 4 MS. ELLIS: Laundry staff, kitchen staff? 5 MR. CONRATH: Yes, Ma'am. There is usually 6 one midnight worker. Normally what he does is to clean 7 the floors, and any of the trash that the midnight 8 officers need him to do. He does occasionally do 9 laundry. But there is usually just one on duty at 10 midnights. 11 MS. ELLIS: For the entire -- 12 MR. CONRATH: For the midnight shift, yes. 13 MS. ELLIS: For the entire facility? 14 MR. CONRATH: Just during the midnights. Is 15 that what you were asking? 16 MS. ELLIS: Yes. 17 MR. CONRATH: Yes. 18 MS. ELLIS: What about females? Are they ever 19 on those kinds of assignments, so that they would have 20 to move from their cells to another part of the 21 facility? 22 MR. CONRATH: We only house 24 females, so we 176 1 can't -- we do not have enough females to actually have 2 them as -- the status of inmate workers. So we don't 3 allow females to be inmate workers. Only males can be 4 inmate workers. 5 MS. ELLIS: Are they escorted as they move 6 about the facility to those duties? 7 MR. CONRATH: The inmate workers? 8 MS. ELLIS: Yes. 9 MR. CONRATH: They are not. 10 MS. ELLIS: So that they would just arrive at 11 the work location without being escorted by an officer? 12 MR. CONRATH: They are escorted out of the 13 block by the officer to their post. And, of course, 14 they have access to areas, the main hallways, and 15 coming to where the officers are to get trash, do 16 laundry, sweep, mop, anything that they are needed to 17 do. 18 MS. ELLIS: Okay, thank you. 19 MR. CONRATH: They do not have access, though, 20 to storage rooms, and other places like that. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Mr. Conrath, how would an 22 inmate report a sexual assault in your facility? 177 1 MR. CONRATH: At this present time, they 2 could, of course, just verbally, by telling an officer 3 or any staff member. They could write a request form 4 and turn it into an officer. They also now, with the 5 new implementation of the -- on the inmate phones, the 6 crime tip line, they could record a message on there 7 that could leave a message for, I believe, four people 8 in the facility that have access to that. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: How about visitation? 10 MR. CONRATH: Sure, yes. Visitation, they 11 could tell their friends, family members on visits, 12 too. Or they could tell their attorneys, too, on any 13 kind of visit. So -- 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Does the facility listen in on 15 some of the phone calls? 16 MR. CONRATH: For a visitation? 17 MR. MCFARLAND: No, for -- out of the housing 18 units. 19 MR. CONRATH: Yes, Sir. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Any other ways that an inmate 21 might report? They could ask to see the nursing staff. 22 MR. CONRATH: Well, I was meaning staff, in 178 1 general. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, yes. 3 MR. CONRATH: I mean, everybody, any staff 4 member that works there. It doesn't have to be a 5 correction officer. It could be support staff, it 6 could be kitchen, anybody that they would probably feel 7 comfortable with, they could talk to: a programs 8 director, or so forth, so on. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: How would they communicate 10 with the outside world? 11 MR. CONRATH: As far as -- 12 MR. MCFARLAND: That they had been sexually 13 assaulted? 14 MR. CONRATH: Phone conversations or letters 15 or visits with their family members and friends. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Do you read the 17 outgoing mail? 18 MR. CONRATH: No. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So, if I was raped last 20 night by a staff member -- so I obviously didn't want 21 to communicate with the staff -- and I wanted to tell 22 the outside world, and I know that staff are listening 179 1 in on phone calls, the only way I can get to somebody 2 outside your facility is writing a letter. Is that 3 right? 4 MR. CONRATH: Yes. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Ms. Rhodes, do you 6 agree with that? 7 MS. RHODES: Yes. I believe the visits, too, 8 if they had a visit with a family member. 9 MR. CONRATH: Yes. 10 MS. RHODES: Those calls aren't listened to, 11 are they, or reported? 12 MR. CONRATH: No, they're not. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: The -- 14 MS. RHODES: They're not recorded. 15 MR. CONRATH: Those calls are not listened to. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: The visitation calls? 17 MR. CONRATH: Correct. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: So the -- there is rarely any 19 contact visitation, is that correct? 20 MR. CONRATH: Correct. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: So it's across the window? 22 MR. CONRATH: Yes, Sir. 180 1 MR. MCFARLAND: But it's your testimony that 2 these -- that no staff is overhearing what's going on 3 between the -- across the window. Is that right? 4 Anybody listening to the conversation at visitation? 5 MR. CONRATH: Not to my knowledge. I mean, 6 they would have to actually physically be in the room. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Is there anybody in the room 8 during visitation? Any staff? 9 MR. CONRATH: No. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And it's not wired for 11 surveillance? 12 MR. CONRATH: It is recorded, yes, but they 13 are not listened to. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh. 15 MS. RHODES: Oh, it is recorded? I didn't 16 know that. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So the only 18 confidential way of getting to the outside world that 19 you had been raped by staff would be writing a letter. 20 MR. CONRATH: Correct. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Has the staff received any 22 kind of training, that you're aware of, about the duty 181 1 to report suspected staff-on-inmate sexual misconduct? 2 MR. CONRATH: Other than what I can recall 3 when I was -- first started there, during my 4 inauguration, I remember that there were some thoughts 5 and training on that, as far as told to report stuff, 6 make sure the reports come out, if that's what you 7 mean. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Was this in 2003, when you 9 became food service director? 10 MR. CONRATH: Yes, yes. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 12 MR. CONRATH: I mean, yes, it's -- you know, 13 it's the -- our initial three-day, where we go for 14 policies, procedures, and -- 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 16 MR. CONRATH: -- get shown certain things 17 about the facility. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Now, am I correct, that a new 19 CO recruit doesn't actually go to the academy, or get 20 the three-and-a-half weeks of training until after they 21 have been hired on? Is that right? 22 MR. CONRATH: Correct. We hire the position, 182 1 and then we send them through the training, the 136 2 hours of training that is required for them to be a 3 correction officer in our facility. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: But they don't get that before 5 they start? 6 MR. CONRATH: They get it within their first 7 year -- 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 9 MR. CONRATH: -- of employment. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: So, it's possible for an 11 individual to work there for six, eight, nine months 12 without having the three-and-a-half weeks of training. 13 Is that correct? 14 MR. CONRATH: Yes, Sir. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Has that ever happened, in 16 your experience? 17 MR. CONRATH: Yes, Sir. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Ms. Rhodes? 19 MS. RHODES: Absolutely. 20 MS. CHUNN: Did I understand that there was a 21 hotline that was available for detainees? Was there 22 some kind of phone? 183 1 MS. RHODES: That's the new system they put 2 in. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: The blue line. 4 MS. CHUNN: The blue line, yes. The blue 5 line. 6 MR. CONRATH: The inmate phone system? 7 MS. CHUNN: Yes. Is that the blue line? 8 MR. MCFARLAND: The tip line. 9 MS. CHUNN: The tip line. 10 MR. CONRATH: Yes, yes, yes. It's part of the 11 inmate phone system. The tip line is on there. They 12 posted up the numbers that you can call for the 13 inmates, in case they needed to report something that 14 they didn't want to talk to somebody, and they just 15 needed to report something. 16 We have actually gotten a crime tip, where a 17 lady discarded her fetus off that line. We also had a 18 bomb threat reported on that line, so far. Like I 19 said, that's a very new -- 20 MR. MCFARLAND: That's just been out about two 21 months, right? Since the -- 22 MR. CONRATH: Roughly, yes. Roughly, yes. 184 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Since this BJS report came 2 out? 3 MR. CONRATH: Correct. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And this is part of the 5 same system that the inmates would use to call their 6 relatives, right? 7 MR. CONRATH: Yes, Sir. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. And where does the 9 tip line go? To whom does it go? 10 MR. CONRATH: Our access -- the only people in 11 our facility that have access to the tip line, the 12 information on the tip line, is myself, the warden, 13 Lieutenant Eddy, and our network administrator, Randy 14 Miller, who oversees the whole situation. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: And is this password 16 protected? 17 MR. CONRATH: Yes, Sir. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: So you are the only four 19 people who could pick up the tips? 20 MR. CONRATH: Correct. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: And you check them how often? 22 MR. CONRATH: I check mine every day. 185 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And how many times have 2 you had anything on there? 3 MR. CONRATH: To be honest with you, we have 4 some inmates that, for some reason, will call that and 5 act like they're talking to their family members. I 6 don't know why. We get some strange things on there. 7 But as far as the tips go, we have had just 8 the two I know of, off the top of my head, that I told 9 you about. So -- 10 MR. MCFARLAND: And has there been any thought 11 given to having the tip line go outside the facility, 12 to a prosecutor or a police department? 13 MR. CONRATH: There has been no discussion of 14 that. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. I will ask the warden 16 about that. 17 And isn't it true that the piece of paper that 18 is taped up next to the blue inmate phone that talks 19 about the tip line just says, "If you want to report a 20 crime, or criminal activity, here is the number," 21 right? 22 MR. CONRATH: Correct. 186 1 MR. MCFARLAND: There is nothing that says, 2 "If you have been the victim of a crime, including 3 sexual assault, here is a confidential number?" 4 MR. CONRATH: Correct. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 6 MR. CONRATH: We do not. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: And would it surprise you if I 8 said that, in talking to the inmates, it never dawned 9 on them that this was a victim reporting mechanism, it 10 was more of a snitch line for criminal reporting? 11 MR. CONRATH: No, I would not be surprised. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Have you all seen the poster 13 on sexual assault and -- that the Northwest Ohio 14 Regional Correctional Facility has posted all over 15 their facility? 16 MS. RHODES: No. 17 MR. CONRATH: I have not. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. But you have seen their 19 little peach-colored inmate handbook, right? 20 MS. RHODES: I haven't. 21 MR. CONRATH: I have read some of their 22 policies. 187 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. In fact -- 2 MR. CONRATH: Not that book, but -- 3 MR. MCFARLAND: -- it looked like the -- what 4 was pasted on the -- some of the windows in the housing 5 unit, there was some fine print inmate misconduct 6 rules, you know, what is prohibited and what's not. Is 7 that taken from -- you know, from some standard Ohio 8 document, or is this -- or do you know what I'm talking 9 about? 10 MS. RHODES: The inmate rules? 11 MR. CONRATH: You mean the inmate rules that 12 are posted in the -- 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 14 MR. CONRATH: That was created -- to be honest 15 with you, I couldn't answer. I don't know when it was 16 created, or who created it, so -- 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay, all right. 18 MR. CONRATH: But I have read it. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: I take it you haven't been 20 trained in any kind of a SART team, or you know, a 21 first responder training on what to do if you come 22 across information about a sexual assault? 188 1 MR. CONRATH: I have not. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 3 MS. RHODES: No. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 5 MS. ELLIS: I also would gather that you don't 6 have any training related to victim assistance and 7 surrounding victim assistance programs -- 8 MS. RHODES: No. 9 MS. ELLIS: -- in the area who could be of 10 support to you in working with victims in the aftermath 11 of -- 12 MS. RHODES: No. 13 MS. ELLIS: -- the victimization? 14 MR. CONRATH: No, Ma'am. 15 MS. ELLIS: Those are excellent resources for 16 you to tap, as you begin to work toward some compliance 17 with PREA. 18 MS. RHODES: Absolutely. And I just recently 19 hired a nurse that has 23 years in the mental health 20 field. She is an RN, and I believe she is going to be 21 a good resource for us, also. 22 MS. ELLIS: Excellent. How many nurses do you 189 1 have on staff? 2 MS. RHODES: We only have three. 3 MS. ELLIS: Three? 4 MR. MCFARLAND: For three shifts. 5 MS. RHODES: Not enough. We're not there 24 6 hours. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. Is there ever one 8 on -- always present? 9 MS. RHODES: No. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. So there is nobody 11 on the midnight shift. 12 MS. RHODES: No. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. How about the afternoon 14 shift? 15 MS. RHODES: As long as no one is sick or on 16 vacation. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 18 MS. RHODES: We usually have coverage from 19 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. Monday through Friday, and 6:00 20 a.m. to 4:00 Saturday and Sunday. 21 MS. ELLIS: And I don't suppose you have had 22 any training on trauma? 190 1 MS. RHODES: No. 2 MS. ELLIS: Psychological and emotional trauma 3 associated -- I see the warden shaking his head. 4 MR. CONRATH: I have had training in crisis 5 intervention, CIT. I went through that for that part 6 of training. 7 MS. ELLIS: Excellent, excellent. 8 MS. RHODES: He didn't hear you. 9 MR. CONRATH: I'm sorry. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: If you were sick, and -- who 11 would do the investigations? 12 MR. CONRATH: If I was sick? 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 14 MR. CONRATH: Like off on medical leave for a 15 while? 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 17 MR. CONRATH: Well, the warden would assign a 18 person. That would be a question for him. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Probably Lieutenant Eddy? 20 MR. CONRATH: I would guess. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you have -- 22 MR. CONRATH: Hopefully, I will not be sick, 191 1 so -- 2 MR. MCFARLAND: It's in your job description, 3 right? 4 MR. CONRATH: Yes. 5 (Laughter.) 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Is there a PREA officer now 7 appointed at your facility? 8 MR. CONRATH: There is not. That was a 9 discussion I had with the warden. I don't know where 10 we're going to go with that one, but I know that's 11 something that we want to assign. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: How many juveniles have you 13 seen in your facility in the last few years? 14 MR. CONRATH: Three, maybe. 15 MS. RHODES: That's what I was -- two or 16 three. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And where are they 18 housed? 19 MS. RHODES: If the medical isolation cell is 20 open, we house them there. If not, it's pretty much, I 21 believe, in booking. 22 MR. CONRATH: Booking. 192 1 MS. RHODES: Because they have to be 2 segregated from everyone else, completely segregated. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: So if you can't put them in 4 medical isolation, where do you put them? 5 MS. RHODES: It would be in the booking cell. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Are correctional 7 officers certified law enforcement officers in Ohio? 8 MR. CONRATH: No. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: In other words -- they are 10 not? 11 MR. CONRATH: No. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So -- 13 MR. CONRATH: I mean -- 14 MR. MCFARLAND: -- their experience as COs 15 doesn't count as experience in law enforcement? 16 MR. CONRATH: I'm not really sure how to 17 answer that question -- 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 19 MR. CONRATH: -- to be honest with you. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. 21 MR. CONRATH: I mean, while they're on duty, 22 they're considered law enforcement, so -- 193 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Are you familiar with the 2 frequency of overtime at your facility? 3 MR. CONRATH: The frequency? 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. How often it happens? 5 MR. CONRATH: I couldn't give you any numbers, 6 but there is plenty of overtime, yes. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: And is it mandatory or 8 voluntary? 9 MR. CONRATH: They ask -- they have a list, 10 how the COs do it, they have a list of -- a call-out 11 list, I can't really say exactly how it's said, but 12 the -- it's not -- it's voluntary at first. If no one 13 fills the position, then it's mandatory. And then they 14 start freezing people to stay over. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. And does 16 union -- there are unions at your facility, right? 17 Like, five of them? Five bargaining units? 18 MR. CONRATH: The one union -- let me see. 19 Four bargaining units, I think. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Is -- are -- is any of the 21 posting done on the basis of union seniority? 22 MR. CONRATH: Not to my knowledge. 194 1 MR. MCFARLAND: How about the overtime 2 posting? 3 MR. CONRATH: The overtime posting? 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. Do you give the senior 5 folks their choice to volunteer, and then if you have 6 to freeze anybody, the senior-most union members don't 7 have to -- they're the last people to get forced to do 8 overtime? Is that the way it works, or not? 9 MR. CONRATH: I don't think so, no. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. I will ask the -- 11 MR. CONRATH: Yes. Like I said, I don't 12 control that, I don't do -- 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 14 MR. CONRATH: -- do any of those, so -- 15 MR. MCFARLAND: What one thing would each of 16 you like to see at your facility that you think would 17 reduce the risk of sexual assault? Ms. Rhodes? 18 MS. RHODES: I feel we need more space. We 19 need to build on. Space is one of the biggest 20 problems. We're not supposed to house anyone in 21 booking, and we use those cells way too much. 22 I would like to see a medical wing, actually. 195 1 It's probably not going to happen, but -- 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Mr. Conrath? 3 MR. CONRATH: Well, I mean, I agree with her, 4 as far as there is -- more space would be nice. But 5 more officers would help keep control of everything. 6 But we also have to be a little more 7 proactive, as far as letting inmates know what they 8 can -- that they can report this, not to be afraid, you 9 know? Maybe more postings on what to do, in case you 10 are sexually victimized. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Are you familiar with 12 the -- any inmate orientation that is done in booking, 13 or immediately thereafter? 14 MR. CONRATH: No, I am not. 15 MS. RHODES: No. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. But 17 you're -- Ms. Rhodes, you're real close to booking. 18 MS. RHODES: Yes. And I hear some of the 19 questions being asked. It really depends on how good 20 the booking officer is. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. To your knowledge, they 22 are not handed any -- like this document, "Southeastern 196 1 Ohio Regional Jail Rules for Inmates." Are they -- 2 MS. RHODES: I haven't seen that done, no. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So it kind of varies 4 with the booking officer, as to what, if anything, is 5 told to the inmate about life in this jail? 6 MS. RHODES: Absolutely. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So, is it correct that 8 inmates are not regularly, if ever, told about how to 9 avoid sexual assault, what will be done to perpetrators 10 of sexual assault, or similar type information? 11 MS. RHODES: Correct. 12 MR. CONRATH: Correct. They are not told. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: They are not told that. Okay. 14 Well, I want to thank this panel very much. We are 15 going to adjourn for one hour -- not an 16 hour-and-a-half, but one hour, until 1:00. We will 17 recommence promptly at 1:00 with the next panel. Thank 18 you very much. 19 MS. RHODES: Thanks. 20 (Whereupon, at 11:58 a.m., a luncheon recess 21 was taken.) 22 197 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Mr. Eddy and Mr. VanBibber, 3 would you please come forward? We're back on the 4 record. 5 Please raise your right hands. 6 Whereupon, 7 JAMES EDDY 8 JOSHUA VANBIBBER 9 were called as witnesses and, having been 10 first duly sworn, were examined and testified as 11 follows: 12 EXAMINATION 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay, thank you. Would you 14 please state your full names, and rank, and job 15 descriptions, please? 16 MR. EDDY: My name is James Eddy. I am a 17 lieutenant chief of security at Southeastern Ohio 18 Regional Jail. I have been there ever since it opened 19 in 1998. I have been a lieutenant for approximately 20 six years. Before that, I transferred up from the 21 Athens County Sheriff's Department. I was one of the 22 regular ones that moved along. 198 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 2 MR. VANBIBBER: My name is Joshua VanBibber. 3 I am currently a corrections officer at the regional 4 jail. I have been there for about three-and-a-half 5 years. I had a brief stint as a shift commander for 6 about three months. It was only on an interim basis, 7 and it was given to another person. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Gentlemen, have you had an 9 opportunity to review the Bureau of Justice Statistics' 10 special report on local jail sexual victimization? 11 MR. EDDY: Yes, Sir. 12 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes, Sir. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. What do you make of it? 14 What significance does that have for you, in your job? 15 Mr. Eddy? 16 MR. EDDY: Utilize it as a tool. I feel it's 17 something that's been needed for quite a while. There 18 is not a lot of range in corrections that covers for 19 sexual assaults, or anything like that. I believe -- I 20 think it's going to give us a lot of training and 21 purpose, and help us along. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you think that sexual 199 1 assault goes on in your facility? 2 MR. EDDY: Yes, I do. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Staff on inmate? 4 MR. EDDY: I wouldn't go as far as the assault 5 on staff on inmate. I would say we have inappropriate 6 conduct, as far as I have been there, for my tenure, as 7 far as staff on inmate. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Consensual staff-on-inmate 9 romance? 10 MR. EDDY: Yes. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 12 MR. EDDY: Letters, so forth like that, phone 13 calls, giving out phone numbers, letters, pictures, 14 something like that. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: How about physical contact? 16 MR. EDDY: As far as my knowledge, I think a 17 lot of the physical contact happened outside, after an 18 inmate was released. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Is that permitted at -- 20 MR. EDDY: Except for -- I'm sorry, Sir? 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Sorry. Is that permitted? 22 MR. EDDY: No, it's not. 200 1 MR. MCFARLAND: For how long? 2 MR. EDDY: We have a form when somebody comes 3 in -- I believe it's a PPM form 23 -- that if somebody 4 comes in, an officer has to fill it out and state the 5 relationship that they had with this person. 6 And also, they request whether they can have 7 contact with the person, as far as coming and visiting 8 him, or dropping him off money, or so forth like that, 9 like if somebody's son would come in that works there, 10 or their brother or sister, so forth like that, or 11 prior girlfriends, or classmates, or anything like 12 that, they need to notify us. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Is there any rule against a 14 staff member fraternizing with a former inmate within 15 six months of their release? 16 MR. EDDY: Within any time, Sir. Unless they 17 fill out the PPM form 23 that states that they knew 18 that person before they became incarcerated. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh, I see. So you have to 20 fill -- your COs have to fill out this form if they 21 want to have some contact with any former inmate, is 22 that right? 201 1 MR. EDDY: Yes, for as far as the outside 2 goes. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 4 MR. EDDY: If somebody comes in, and they know 5 them, and they fill out that form, and another officer 6 sees him on the street with that person -- and it's 7 happened before -- and they come back and report it to 8 me, you know, if I find a PPM form 23 form, then I know 9 they had relationships with that person prior to them 10 being incarcerated in our jail. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. As long as they fill 12 out the form, can they have romantic or sexual contact 13 with a former inmate? 14 MR. EDDY: That would be a hard one. I would 15 suggest no, but honestly I think -- I don't think there 16 is much we can do about it, because they did fill out 17 the form, they did notify us that they had a prior 18 relationship with this person. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, do you believe that 20 inmate-on-inmate sexual assault is going on in your 21 facility? 22 MR. EDDY: I believe it's happened, yes, sir. 202 1 MS. ELLIS: Mr. Eddy, would you talk a little 2 bit about your job responsibility as chief of security 3 in the facility? 4 MR. EDDY: Yes. Myself being listed as chief 5 security and a lieutenant -- there used to be two 6 lieutenants that shared duties. One was 7 administrative, I was the correctional side. That 8 position has been abolished, so I am the sole 9 lieutenant over the whole facility. 10 The only thing I am not in charge of is the 11 physical department and the nursing staff. 12 MS. ELLIS: I see. 13 MR. EDDY: Other than that, I am in charge of 14 everything else. I oversee daily operations of the 15 jail security officers, investigations as far as 16 misconduct from officer to officer, officer to 17 supervisor, being late, you know, something like that 18 level. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: What's your involvement, if 20 any, in serious misconduct by a staff? 21 MR. EDDY: More or less, I would be the one to 22 investigate it, as far as it goes, from staff. I would 203 1 be the one to do the recommendation to the warden. I 2 would make a recommendation to him on what I believe 3 that he needs to do to handle the situation, whether it 4 be a write-up, whether it be a suspension, or a 5 dismissal. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Now, how do you divide your 7 responsibility with Mr. Conrath, who is in his new 8 position as investigator? 9 MR. EDDY: We help each other quite a bit, 10 either/or, you know, as far as some investigations go. 11 I will talk to him, he will talk to me. Most 12 generally, he does, like I say, a lot of the inmate 13 ones, and looks into them. And if I know something 14 about it, I tell him, or we help each other back and 15 forth, so forth. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. So the division of 17 labor, informally, is that you investigate and make 18 recommendations to the warden about staff misconduct. 19 Mr. Conrath is responsible for the inmate misconduct. 20 MR. EDDY: For a lot of them, yes. 21 MS. ELLIS: I see. 22 MR. EDDY: Or, rather, if I'm not available or 204 1 he is unavailable, we do each other's. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, you're not so big that 3 you have to categorize things too strictly, is that 4 right? 5 MR. EDDY: That's right, yes, Sir. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. 7 MS. ELLIS: Do you outrank him, then, in the 8 chain of command, and he reports you to, you report to 9 the warden, or -- 10 MR. EDDY: I solely report to the warden. 11 Mr. Conrath is not in the chain of command. That's why 12 he can be held bias (sic), as far as investigating on 13 inmates, to where I oversee the corrections officers, 14 therefore, you know, I'm going to look out for my 15 officers, I'm going to do my best to, you know, to help 16 them out during any investigation. Mr. Conrath can be 17 biased on that part. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, how can you give an 19 objective investigation of staff misconduct if you're 20 going to look out for your officers? 21 MR. EDDY: I'm going to help my officers and 22 get the truth out of them to find out the truth. I'm 205 1 not saying I'm going to take up for the officers. I am 2 going to give them their avenues of approach, what they 3 need to do to either help themselves, or whether to 4 admit their guilt, or whatever. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 6 MR. EDDY: I am going to do my best to, you 7 know, show them the proper way. I'm not going to take 8 up for an officer or lie for no officer. I'm the one 9 that's going to punish them, and I will. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you decide on disciplinary 11 sanctions, or does the warden? 12 MR. EDDY: Warden has final say-so. I can do 13 a recommendation, and if the warden agrees with my 14 recommendation, then I will carry it out. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: So you have no doubt that 16 inmate-on-inmate sexual assault has and is occurring at 17 your facility, is that correct? 18 MR. EDDY: Yes, I believe it's occurring. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: And you have no doubt that 20 sexual -- albeit consensual activity -- sexual activity 21 is going on between, or has gone on between, staff and 22 inmates? 206 1 MR. EDDY: It has gone on, yes. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Are you aware of -- have you 3 heard any rumors of inappropriate relationships at this 4 time in your facility between staff and inmates? 5 MR. EDDY: Not lately, Sir. Not since the 6 last person resigned over it. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: And when was that? 8 MR. EDDY: Oh, God. I believe we had one 9 earlier in 2007. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: And what were the facts? 11 MR. EDDY: I believe she gave an inmate her 12 phone number while the inmate was shipped out from our 13 facility and went to a prison, and then they done a 14 shake-down up there and found our CO's cell phone 15 number in his presence, and they had been making calls 16 back and forth to each other while he was in prison. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: I see. Was she receiving his 18 phone calls on duty, or just at home? 19 MR. EDDY: You know, I'm not positive. We 20 could not force her to bring in her cell phone records. 21 The only thing that we know is that she did receive 22 calls. We don't know if they was on duty or what. 207 1 MR. MCFARLAND: And what did you recommend, if 2 anything, in terms of discipline for that? 3 MR. EDDY: I would recommend termination. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: And did the warden do that? 5 MR. EDDY: I think she resigned. I believe 6 she resigned before we had anything to terminate her. 7 I am not positive on the outcome of it. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: And was Warden -- was Mr. 9 Tolson the warden at the time? 10 MR. EDDY: Yes, Sir. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Officer VanBibber, 12 you're officer in charge of some shifts, is that 13 correct? 14 MR. VANBIBBER: No, Sir. I was actually -- I 15 was kind of in the running for the actual fill-in 16 officer in charge position. There were three of them 17 that were qualified, three of us took the promotional 18 test. 19 After the three-month probationary period, 20 they chose one other officer. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: I see, okay. Do you know why 22 you were selected to testify? 208 1 MR. VANBIBBER: I can only make an assumption 2 about the incident report I wrote on -- 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 4 MR. VANBIBBER: -- sexual misconduct between 5 two male inmates. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Are you aware of any 7 inappropriate sexual activity that has happened in your 8 three-and-a-half years at this facility? 9 MR. VANBIBBER: I have heard more rumors, than 10 anything. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Have you ever seen any proof 12 of it? 13 MR. VANBIBBER: Firsthand basis, no. 14 Allegations, yes, but no actual firsthand basis saying, 15 "I saw this officer do this, or these two inmates do 16 this." 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 18 MR. VANBIBBER: Nothing actual firsthand. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Let's talk about your 20 report number 07-0357, entitled, "Reporting Employee's 21 Narrative," one paragraph long. Is that -- did you 22 report this report? 209 1 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes, Sir. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And is that your 3 signature there, on the left? 4 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes, Sir. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. What do you recall 6 happened in this incident? 7 MR. VANBIBBER: I was assisting a couple of 8 other COs, passing trays in the blocks, and a verbal 9 argument broke out between two of our inmates in our C 10 dorm. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: In your who? 12 MR. VANBIBBER: C block dorm. It's six 13 two-man cells. 14 I removed the two from the block, took them to 15 booking, separated them into different cells, pretty 16 much investigated what was going on. Started with the 17 aggressor. He explained to me what the situation was. 18 I took what he explained to me, took it to the other 19 gentleman, and he pretty much acknowledged that 20 everything that he said was true. 21 At that time, I went back and talked to the 22 block, the block acknowledged that everything that was 210 1 said in booking was also true. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: By "block," you went back to C 3 block and asked other inmates? 4 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes, Sir. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Well, what was the 6 allegation by the aggressor? 7 MR. VANBIBBER: He was -- he made the 8 allegation that, I believe it was, inmate Graves was 9 propositioning oral sex to other male inmates in the 10 block. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Just as a matter of 12 privacy, we're not going to mention the names of the 13 inmates, so -- 14 MR. VANBIBBER: Okay. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. So the -- so there 16 is this allegation against the -- now, did the person 17 who was making this allegation -- you said he was the 18 aggressor? 19 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes, Sir. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Did he -- you call him the 21 aggressor because he started fighting? 22 MR. VANBIBBER: He started the argument, Sir. 211 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Started the argument. And why 2 did he start the argument? 3 MR. VANBIBBER: I believe it was the inmate 4 propositioning him for oral sex, also. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: And he did not appreciate 6 that? 7 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes, Sir. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And then, when you took 9 that accusation to the alleged propositioner, he 10 admitted, "Oh, yes, that's what it was all about?" 11 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes, Sir. He admitted to 12 doing it to -- with two other male inmates, one that 13 was currently incarcerated at the facility, and one 14 that had already been released. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Doing it, as in giving oral 16 sex, or propositioning? 17 MR. VANBIBBER: Giving oral sex, Sir. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. So he said that he 19 had already been doing that to several inmates. 20 MR. VANBIBBER: Two inmates, Sir. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Two inmates. And one was 22 still there? 212 1 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes, Sir. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: And did you go to that inmate? 3 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes, Sir. And he said it was 4 also true. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Did any of them say it 6 was consensual? 7 MR. VANBIBBER: Both inmates did say it was 8 consensual. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: And does that make any 10 difference? 11 MR. VANBIBBER: To me, no. Both of them were 12 wrote up on disciplinary, both were locked down for 30 13 days. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So they were moved to 15 what cell block? 16 MR. VANBIBBER: I believe one was moved into 17 our DSEG and one was moved into our actual D block 18 cells lock-down. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And which one went into 20 DSEG? 21 MR. VANBIBBER: I believe it was the 22 propositioner. 213 1 MR. MCFARLAND: I see. Is it clear in your 2 mind whether consensual oral sex between inmates is 3 prohibited in your facility? 4 MR. VANBIBBER: Any type of sexual touching, 5 hugging, hand-holding, kissing, anything in that nature 6 is prohibited. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: You're sure about that? 8 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes, Sir. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Is it a crime? 10 MR. VANBIBBER: In house yes, out of house, 11 no. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Mr. Eddy, do you agree 13 with that? Is it a crime for inmates to have 14 consensual sexual contact in your facility? 15 MR. EDDY: To a certain point I would agree. 16 Even if they was on the outside by themselves, I don't 17 think there is nothing the law could do to them. But 18 being as they're inside of a penal institution, I feel 19 there should be a law against it, or some sort like 20 that. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you know if there is? 22 MR. EDDY: I do not think there is. 214 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, even in -- 2 MR. EDDY: Even inside, I do not believe there 3 is. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Inside? 5 MR. EDDY: As far as consensual goes. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 7 MS. CHUNN: Mr. VanBibber, in investigating 8 this particular incident, did you happen to learn where 9 the incident actually occurred? 10 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes, Ma'am. They both stated 11 that it occurred in one of their personal cells. 12 MS. CHUNN: And they have the ability to go in 13 and out of their cells at will? 14 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes, Ma'am. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Matter of fact, the -- in 16 order to increase line of sight, the doors are supposed 17 to be open on, what, C block? 18 MR. VANBIBBER: I believe it's A block and C 19 block, and that was -- that went into effect after this 20 incident. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh. 22 MS. CHUNN: So, before the incident, that was 215 1 not the case? 2 MR. VANBIBBER: No, Ma'am. 3 MS. CHUNN: Okay. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Two inmates -- before this 5 incident, two inmates could go into one another's cell, 6 close the door, is that correct? 7 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes, Sir. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. Now, which shift 9 are you in, Officer VanBibber? 10 MR. VANBIBBER: As of right now, I am 11 currently working day shift. By the end of the month, 12 I will be working afternoon shift again. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: And have -- what did 14 you -- what shift did you do in 2007? 15 MR. VANBIBBER: In 2007? I believe I worked 16 on midnight shift part of it, also one afternoon shift. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And did you have 18 occasion to -- in 2007, in either of those 19 shifts -- find out how many correctional officers were 20 in the control area during your shift? Do you know if 21 there is one or two? 22 MR. VANBIBBER: Usually one. We are usually 216 1 under-staffed. We are usually right at the five COs 2 and one shift supervisor, so it's usually one. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: That was in the midnight 4 shift? 5 MR. VANBIBBER: Afternoon also, Sir. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Afternoon shift is typically 7 five, and one supervisor? 8 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And one of those five 10 is in the control, is that correct? 11 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes, Sir. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: And Lieutenant Eddy, is that 13 -- what are the responsibilities of the single officer 14 in control? 15 MR. EDDY: His responsibilities are to monitor 16 the cameras, monitor the inmates from A, B, C, D, E, 17 and F blocks, let people in and out of the facility. 18 His responsibility is to turn the lights on, lights 19 off, telephones on and off, TVs on and off. He has 20 actually got control of the whole facility. He 21 is -- takes the intercom calls, takes all incoming 22 calls from officers that come to the sally port to drop 217 1 off prisoners. 2 Very, very busy person up there. It's our 3 most -- probably the most hated spot, maybe, to work 4 for some. Some really enjoy it, but others don't, 5 because you do not stop, plus you've got to keep a log 6 book of about every entry you do. 7 So, it is really a lot of work for one person 8 to do. That's why sometimes they might miss something 9 back in the blocks that they're watching, because 10 they're so busy doing everything else. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Isn't it fair to say that 12 that's too much for one individual? 13 MR. EDDY: At times, yes. I would say it's 14 very too much between day shift and afternoon shift. 15 Midnight shift I wouldn't say as much, because you 16 know, you might have some intakes come in, or some 17 officers come in, but you ain't got the everyday hassle 18 of court and administration being there. 19 So, there is a little difference, I think, 20 between the two shifts, and towards the midnight shift, 21 as far as an officer working in control. 22 MS. CHUNN: Mr. VanBibber, were there any 218 1 reactions among your fellow staffers when you reported 2 this incident? 3 MR. VANBIBBER: Ma'am, they just wanted to 4 know the circumstances surrounding it. The incident 5 report is open to anyone. I didn't see any reason to 6 keep it from them. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Going back to the control 8 responsibilities, Lieutenant Eddy, if I understand it 9 correctly, this one individual has to watch -- is 10 responsible for direct line of sight into six cell 11 blocks. 12 MR. EDDY: Yes, Sir. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: A through F? 14 MR. EDDY: Yes, Sir. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: As well as if anybody is out 16 in the covered rec area to the right of A block. 17 MR. EDDY: That's mainly the rover's 18 responsibility, as far as the outdoor rec yard goes. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And also is watching 44 20 monitors? There are 44 cameras in your facility, 21 right? 22 MR. EDDY: Forty-four listed on the camera, 219 1 yes, that shows up, I believe. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So he's got -- and 3 anyone -- and do some of these cameras -- for example, 4 the ones in G and H, they rotate, don't they? 5 MR. EDDY: Yes. Yes, you would set them up to 6 rotate, or -- depending on which officer is up there. 7 But mostly, I believe it sits there and rotates, the 8 one camera does. The other one is stationary. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. And so he has to: watch 10 44 cameras, some of them rotating and, you know, 11 changing; respond to all requests for opening and 12 closing doors? 13 MR. EDDY: Yes, Sir. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Respond to all requests of 15 transport in the sally port area? 16 MR. EDDY: Yes, Sir. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Announce any female officer 18 going into a male cell block? 19 MR. EDDY: Yes, Sir, and vice versa. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: And vice versa, all the while 21 keeping an eye on 44 cameras and 6 cell blocks. 22 MR. EDDY: A very busy man. 220 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Is it ever a woman? 2 MR. EDDY: Yes, Sir. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. How many individuals on 4 your staff do you feel safe assigning the control to? 5 MR. EDDY: I have confidence in all of my 6 staff in control. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, all right. How many do 8 you assign to the control room? 9 MR. EDDY: The person who assigns them to the 10 control room is the shift supervisor. Sergeant Zartman 11 or Sergeant Easterling, for their shift, they put their 12 people where they want to post them at. They know 13 their people better than I do, they're working closer 14 with them than I am. We give them a lot of 15 responsibility that the sergeants have to handle. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay, well I -- they're not 17 around for me to ask, so do you know who they regularly 18 assign to the control room? 19 MR. EDDY: Yes. We've got a person on day 20 shift that is assigned up there every day. That's what 21 he wants. Some of it is medical on his part. He is a 22 good control officer, he logs perfectly. A little bit 221 1 slow, but as far as his log book work goes, I don't 2 think there is anybody there any better. 3 There is a couple of officers on afternoon 4 shift that I know are very excellent. Half the times 5 you don't even -- you get to the door, you don't have 6 to push the button, because they've already got it open 7 for you before you get there. 8 We got some people that's actually turned that 9 job -- you wouldn't believe how quick they can do that 10 work, and how good they do pay attention to everything 11 up there. I mean, you take a guy up there watching all 12 the blocks and all the officers, and he opens the door 13 before you get there. Pretty good worker. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: So there are -- for the day 15 and afternoon shifts, there are three, maybe four, 16 individuals who are typically assigned to the control 17 room? 18 MR. EDDY: Everybody is trained, eventually, 19 to work every post in there. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Sure. 21 MR. EDDY: I believe on day shift, every 22 officer on day shift can operate the control center. 222 1 And I believe everybody on afternoon shift, except for 2 maybe one, a new hire, can operate the control system. 3 And same as far as midnight shift goes. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Lieutenant Eddy, there were 5 nine suicide attempts in your jail last year, is that 6 correct? 7 MR. EDDY: From the top of my head, I'm not 8 sure. But if you got all the reports, I believe that 9 would be true. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Do you have any idea 11 why that many for a facility of this size? Does that 12 seem a lot to you? 13 MR. EDDY: It seems quite a few. You know, I 14 feel we live in a part of the state, a depressing part, 15 I guess, for a lot of the people there, with income and 16 everything. They can't get out, they can't get out to 17 see their family. I've seen people sitting there for 18 90 days over a $250 bond, because they can't pay it. 19 That can be a very depressing thing for somebody, 20 especially somebody -- a young person. You take their 21 family away, it hurts a lot of people in different 22 ways. 223 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, yes. 2 MS. CHUNN: Mr. Eddy, do you hire the staff, 3 the line staff? Does that whole process come through 4 you, the hiring of line staff? 5 MR. EDDY: The hiring of the line staff? I am 6 involved in the hiring of probably just about everybody 7 there. I sit on for the nurses, if they need me to sit 8 on, too, but usually I don't. 9 But as far as anybody hired in as a CO, there 10 is myself, Mr. Conrath, and I believe our HR officer, 11 Tracy. We do a little panel forum, like, and then we 12 get done interviewing them and then we set up another 13 one with Warden Tolson. And then we make a decision. 14 MS. CHUNN: Does the warden rely heavily on 15 your recommendations in making the decision? 16 MR. EDDY: The warden, more or less, I think 17 he goes with our recommendations. He has on the past 18 few that we have hired. He has sided with us, and says 19 that's -- you know, "That's why you're there, do your 20 job," so -- but he does interview them, he does talk to 21 them and meets with them. And so far he has went every 22 time with our recommendations. 224 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Lieutenant Eddy, why do you 2 think that your facility was among the worst in the 3 country, in terms of reported sexual victimization? 4 MR. EDDY: I believe some of it is fabricated. 5 I believe some of the inmates just lied. I'm not 6 saying all of them did. It happens. It happens in 7 every jail, and nobody can say it don't. I just don't 8 think it is that high there. 9 At that point in time, I was taking away 10 sweatshirts from them to, you know, to move stuff 11 around because it's summer time, they don't need 12 sweatshirts, trying to keep them keeping their uniforms 13 on. I do rules. They get mad. And that's the way 14 some of them react back. 15 I was sitting there in the hallway when 16 they're coming out of the interview room from the 17 process, laughing, going down the hallway, saying, 18 "Yes, we f-'d him," you know, and you know, my personal 19 opinion, I think some of them lied. But some of them 20 are telling the truth, too. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Would there be anything 22 different about inmates surveyed in other jails? I 225 1 mean, wouldn't they all, a number of them, be inclined 2 to, you know, F the administration? 3 MR. EDDY: I think probably other jails might 4 have got the same source. I'm not saying all of them 5 lied. Like I say, I believe that some of them was 6 probably sexually assaulted in there. I just cannot 7 see that high of a number out of as many people as we 8 have. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you have any reason or any 10 explanation why your inmates in particular would be 11 three times more likely to -- than the average jail 12 inmate -- to want to lie about what's going on? 13 MR. EDDY: Small community, everybody knows 14 everybody. I am probably the most disliked person 15 there. I'm the one that sets the rules, I'm the one 16 that makes the rules. I'm the one that makes the shift 17 commanders and employees, and so forth, follow the 18 rules. 19 That would just be a bet or a guess that I 20 would have to say is maybe why some of them would. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Officer VanBibber, I asked you 22 whether you thought this report was accurate. Or maybe 226 1 I didn't ask that. 2 Do you have an opinion as to whether your 3 facility is -- has a particularly high prevalence of 4 sexual victimization? 5 MR. VANBIBBER: There could be any number of 6 factors: poor poverty level; high accounting for 7 mentally retarded people; people with mental health 8 issues; anger; wanting to retaliate against staff. 9 There is -- you can just name any number of things that 10 could be causes. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Any other causes, in your 12 opinion? 13 MR. VANBIBBER: Not really. That would be 14 about -- in my personal opinion, that would be about 15 the most prevalent. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Is there any particular 17 reason, as I just asked Lieutenant Eddy, why the 18 inmates in your jail would be three times more likely 19 than the average jail individual to want to screw the 20 administration? 21 MR. VANBIBBER: There could be reasons. Some 22 of our inmates come from other counties. They happen 227 1 to be one -- well, five member counties and one county 2 we contract out to. The one county we do receive 3 inmates from, they usually send us their medical 4 issues, they send us their disciplinary problems. 5 And a lot of them are away from their 6 families, a lot of their families don't want to drive 7 that far just to see them. So, you know, they might be 8 wanting to retaliate against the jail, just to be able 9 to possibly go back to that county so they can see 10 their kids, see their family, you know, receive 11 commissary, things like that. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you -- go ahead. 13 MS. CHUNN: Mr. Eddy, in your 10 years there, 14 I take it you have seen some changes in management, and 15 management philosophy. Is that true? 16 MR. EDDY: Yes, I have been there through 17 every administrator or warden, yes. 18 MS. CHUNN: In your key role as chief of 19 security, every time they go through those changes, how 20 does it affect the line level staff? I'm sorry, 21 Lieutenant Eddy. 22 MR. EDDY: That's fine. Through all of the 228 1 past wardens that has been there, they all have a 2 different philosophy. They all have their own way of 3 working. Some might go more towards security, some 4 might go more towards serving the public. Some might 5 go other ways. 6 It does affect almost everybody there, because 7 they have the final say-so. They have the final say-so 8 on policies, memos, directives. They're going to 9 change what they want to, and you've got to follow it. 10 So it does affect almost everybody there. As soon as 11 we switch a warden -- you get in the one groove; two 12 years later you've got another one, two years later 13 you've got another one, three years later -- everybody 14 runs everything different. They have their own values 15 and own thinking. 16 MS. CHUNN: And we heard this morning from the 17 first panel that perhaps the policy and procedure 18 manual is not quite what it needs to be. 19 MR. EDDY: It definitely is not. I believe a 20 lot of the policies state one thing, and we have 21 actually circumvented them. We just have not redone 22 the policies and maybe change it a little bit to where 229 1 it works better for us. 2 The policies originated from the first warden. 3 She brought them back from Columbiana County in Ohio 4 for the last jail that she operated there. So it was 5 not a regional jail, it was a single jail, and that's 6 where our policies came from, was Columbiana County. 7 MS. CHUNN: So then you have got policies and 8 procedures that are not quite what you need for them to 9 be, and then you've got a legacy of instability in 10 management and philosophy. So it sort of falls to 11 those of you who have been there a while to guide the 12 new line staff in what really is expected, and how they 13 will be evaluated. Now -- 14 MR. MCFARLAND: That is -- you need to ask him 15 as a question. 16 MS. CHUNN: Okay. No, I was getting -- 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh, okay. 18 MS. CHUNN: I'm getting to it. Now, how do 19 you use, then -- how do you use the knowledge that you 20 have, having been there for a while, to effect the 21 kinds of values and to see the kinds of responses to 22 issues like sexual abuse, as you work with your staff? 230 1 MR. EDDY: At the beginning of every shift, we 2 have a shift briefing. I attend every shift briefing 3 myself. After that shift briefing is over, I talk to 4 the sergeants, I relay messages through them the way 5 that I feel that we should do something, get their 6 opinion on how we should do it, and then we make a 7 decision. 8 And it's not just only myself; I rely on the 9 sergeants' viewpoint, because they have a lot into it. 10 They have a lot of closeness to the inmates. They're 11 back there every day, they're booking them in, they're 12 searching them. Their opinion goes highly with me. 13 MS. CHUNN: My congratulations, Lieutenant 14 Eddy, because I wasn't sure, after I asked that 15 question, if you followed it, and you did excellently. 16 That's what I was looking for. I was looking for how 17 do you operationalize that, and you said it quite well. 18 Now, one more question attached to that. 19 Heaven forbid, but if you were to leave tomorrow, how 20 would the day-to-day operations and values -- I'm not 21 talking about sort of what we're going to do at 8:00 22 and 9:00, but the kinds of guidance and coaching around 231 1 effectiveness in your services. How would that be 2 communicated? 3 MR. EDDY: I feel there is sergeants in place 4 right now that is capable of taking over my job, if I 5 was to leave. Some of our values may be different. 6 But as far as our job duties go, I think it would be 7 the same. Very good, very good shift commanders we 8 have. 9 MS. CHUNN: And can you think of ways to 10 improve that transmission of value and culture, so that 11 you could be assured, for example, that you minimized 12 staff sexual abuse? Abuse of detainees by staff or 13 other detainees? 14 MR. EDDY: As long as you have a no tolerance 15 rule, there shouldn't be any other changes. It's got 16 to be no exceptions, no tolerance. Whether it's me 17 there, or anybody else, there has got to be a line 18 somewhere to stop sexual abuse. 19 MS. CHUNN: Thank you. 20 MS. ELLIS: I would like to go back to the 21 notion, to the idea, to the law, PREA. And we had a 22 discussion this morning, and we heard that PREA has not 232 1 yet filtered down to your facility. 2 With what we have heard this morning, and some 3 of your observations and admissions about conditions 4 there at the facility, what are your plans, as one of 5 the top administrators in the facility, regarding PREA? 6 MR. EDDY: We have been looking into getting 7 some training in there this year for PREA. We have put 8 in phones for the inmates. 9 After listening today, I would like to plan to 10 change the note out there with the phone number on it 11 to involve sexual crimes, or, as an inmate towards an 12 inmate, not just a hotline to rat somebody out, more 13 cameras, more visibility, taking out the blind spots, 14 eliminating inmates' access to certain parts of the 15 jail, to where there are blind spots. 16 MS. ELLIS: What about notification to inmates 17 regarding PREA, information provided for them, 18 information posted throughout the facility? 19 MR. EDDY: I believe we do have some posted. 20 We definitely need more. We're not nowhere near what 21 we can be. But we are working on it, and we're taking 22 all steps forward to comply. 233 1 MS. ELLIS: Where is that information posted 2 in the facility? 3 MR. EDDY: Some of it is posted on the windows 4 to the blocks, I believe. 5 MS. ELLIS: Thank you. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Where are the blind spots, 7 Lieutenant Eddy? 8 MR. EDDY: There is blind spots in the 9 change-out area. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: That's where the -- 11 MR. EDDY: Intake. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Intake. There, the inmate 13 property room, inmate clothing room, all 14 three -- actually, all four of the interview rooms, 15 work release area, laundry room, dry storage, freezer, 16 deep freezer, G and H bathrooms, G and H behind the 17 wall. There is all -- tons of them. 18 And, unfortunately, you're not going to be 19 able to take them all away. There -- it's impossible 20 for the restrooms, and that type like that. I would 21 love to see a camera shining in each one of the blocks. 22 That would take a lot off the officer, to where, if an 234 1 incident does happen, we could refer back to the video, 2 because, like I say, the officer is very busy. I would 3 love to see camera back there. 4 But you've got to watch out. You get in that 5 Privacy Act, or if somebody is in the restroom, and 6 there can't be a camera nowhere near the restroom, 7 especially if you can see anything. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Would you agree that you need 9 more officers? 10 MR. EDDY: I would agree. I have said that 11 for years, being the chief of security. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Would you agree that the COs 13 who sit in G and H need to get up and rove around, 14 including going into the showers and restrooms? 15 MR. EDDY: Yes, I do. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: There is nothing preventing an 17 officer of the same sex going into showers and toilet 18 areas, right? 19 MR. EDDY: No. They're supposed to go around 20 every hour. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 22 MR. EDDY: I have a system down there, it's 235 1 a -- you can call it the "snitch stick," "the wand," 2 it's actually -- I got buttons set out throughout the 3 building, but the rovers, or the officers, when they do 4 their checks, they take a wand. It's a stick, and they 5 have to put it on there, and it downloads where they 6 was at, where they've been, what time, what day, what 7 hour, what second. 8 And then, every other day I will come in and I 9 will download them onto my computer. So, if something 10 does happen, I can go back through that log and find 11 out what officer was there, just like, you know, when 12 we had the suicide. I pulled all the logs up on that, 13 and my officers went through more than what they're 14 required to that evening, and done their checks right 15 there. 16 So, I mean, that's the way we refer back to 17 that -- 18 MR. MCFARLAND: How soon had a rover been in 19 the E block, where the suicide occurred? 20 MR. EDDY: I would say within 20 minutes. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Before or after the suicide? 22 MR. EDDY: I would say after. From what the 236 1 doctor said over at the hospital -- which I can't say 2 it will come back the same -- but the doctor said over 3 there that it appeared he had been deceased about 20 to 4 25 minutes. 5 MS. CHUNN: Lieutenant, what are the problems 6 that you face in holding your staff accountable? 7 MR. EDDY: As you mean for discipline, or -- 8 MS. CHUNN: In doing their jobs. 9 MR. EDDY: I hold them fully accountable. 10 MS. CHUNN: No, I'm not asking if you hold 11 them accountable. I am asking for the problems that 12 you face in trying to exact that accountability from 13 them, in trying to get each one to do what he or she is 14 supposed to do. 15 MR. EDDY: That comes back to a lot on the 16 shift commanders, too, because each shift 17 commander -- some of them are a little different. Some 18 of them run their shifts differently, as you have seen 19 with Sergeant Easterling and Sergeant Zartman. 20 I'm not quite understanding what you want me 21 to tell you, truthfully. But -- 22 MS. CHUNN: I want you to tell me truthfully 237 1 what are the problems that you face in trying to 2 provide consistent supervision and care to the 3 detainees in that facility. 4 So, you're the chief of security. So, 5 ultimately, the buck stops with you. So, what are the 6 issues that you face in trying to do this? 7 MR. EDDY: The issues I would face would be 8 maybe somebody forging a report, somebody not telling 9 me the truth, somebody lying for another 10 officer -- officers stick together, bikers stick 11 together, truck drivers stick together -- it would be 12 a -- 13 MS. CHUNN: Panel members stick together. 14 MR. EDDY: Panel members stick together. So 15 -- but, you know, there is a lot that you've got to 16 look at, being in my position, because you want to 17 believe your officers, but there is a lot of times it 18 just don't add up. 19 So, that's -- would probably be the biggest 20 thing right there, is truthfulness, as far as, you 21 know, you've got to get all the details of everything, 22 both sides. Just because it's an inmate don't mean 238 1 they're always wrong. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: So, officers are not going to 3 be in a real hurry to rat on their fellow officers, is 4 that right? 5 MR. EDDY: Certain officers I might say that 6 to. There is other officers that, if they feel that an 7 officer is out of line, it's reported. 8 MS. ELLIS: Mr. Eddy, earlier we talked about 9 the fact that there are numbers of sexual assault cases 10 that have happened, or -- in the past, that there is an 11 amount of sexual assault going on within the facility. 12 Yet there are few to no reports or complaints regarding 13 those conditions. And the previous panel talked about 14 why and how they see that situation. 15 Why do you think that is the case? To what do 16 you attribute the fact that there are reports of sexual 17 assault within the facility, both inmate on inmate and 18 inmate on staff, staff on inmate, and yet we have no 19 complaints? 20 MR. EDDY: That it's not reported, correct? 21 MS. ELLIS: Yes. 22 MR. EDDY: Shame, scared, don't feel that 239 1 anything will be done about it. 2 MS. ELLIS: So you agree with the previous 3 panel. Are there any other conditions or aspects that 4 you would add to that list? 5 MR. EDDY: I don't believe so. I think when 6 an act like this -- even as far as people out on the 7 street that could take it and get raped and not report 8 it for months, there is a big part of shame in that, 9 there is a big part of scared, afraid. 10 MS. ELLIS: Now, on the other hand, for staff 11 members who may be aware of sexual assault going on, 12 may have witnessed it, may have heard about it, what 13 would the reasons for staff members not reporting that 14 information? 15 MR. EDDY: They didn't like the inmate. Maybe 16 they thought it was funny, maybe they liked it. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Or maybe they wanted to 18 protect their fellow staff, who was the perpetrator? 19 MR. EDDY: Could be. Yes, Sir. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you know of such an 21 instance? Have you suspected such an instance in the 22 last 10 years at your facility? 240 1 MR. EDDY: It's hard to say whether they 2 suspected they lied. Nothing could be proved. Do I 3 think that other inmates -- or other officers knew that 4 this officer was seeing this inmate on the outside? 5 Yes, I do believe that. Do I believe it wasn't told? 6 Yes, I believe that. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: I'm sorry, I didn't understand 8 the last one. 9 MR. EDDY: They were all consensual. I 10 believe some of the officers knew, and didn't report 11 it. 12 If it happened inside, you know, I would have 13 to think differently. I think the officers would 14 report a sexual assault from one officer to an inmate 15 on the inside. As far as that inmate being released, I 16 don't think they would. It's like a -- 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Well -- 18 MR. EDDY: I don't know how I want to say it. 19 If they're incarcerated, I believe that officers would 20 report it. If they're not incarcerated, and they was 21 having sexual activities outside, I don't think they 22 would. 241 1 I think it's -- you know, one officer would 2 say, "Well, he is not at work, it's his time, and it's 3 none of my business." But once they bring it to work, 4 I believe the officers say, "It's my business now," if 5 you see what I'm trying to get the point to. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Officer VanBibber, have you 7 suspicions that your fellow officers sometimes don't 8 rat on themselves, on one another? 9 MR. VANBIBBER: That's probably true. I would 10 guess it would depend upon the circumstance, whether 11 it's something small, something large, something that 12 actually needs reported. It probably would be 13 reported. We are pretty much all responsible. 14 I wouldn't say that -- I can't account for 15 what everybody else would say, but I can account saying 16 that the officers I work with would all, if it was 17 necessary, snitch, I guess, on their fellow officers. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Have you ever known them to do 19 that? 20 MR. VANBIBBER: Small instances, yes. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: What about significant staff 22 misconduct that -- has any of your fellow officers ever 242 1 snitched on somebody who is -- concerning a serious 2 staff infraction? 3 MR. VANBIBBER: I believe that it has. My 4 personal experience, no. I have only heard it through 5 the grapevine, you know. You know how rumor mills 6 start. I have heard about it, never seen it. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Officer VanBibber, who are the 8 inmates who are most vulnerable to sexual assault, in 9 your experience? 10 MR. VANBIBBER: Mentally handicapped, mentally 11 retarded. Sexual orientation has to do with it. 12 People assume that because someone is homosexual that, 13 "Hey, he wants it," you know. They automatically 14 assume that. It's not the case, but it's possible. 15 Low income, first time in jail -- we do sometimes have 16 to mix first-time offenders with people that have been 17 in the prison system for 20, 30 years. It just does 18 happen in a small facility like ours. That's probably 19 a few of them. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: What about any age or stature 21 differences? 22 MR. VANBIBBER: That's more than likely 243 1 possible, too. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Has that been your experience, 3 or is that a guess? 4 MR. VANBIBBER: The actual misconduct that I 5 know of, the only one I have actually ever investigated 6 is reported, so -- 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 8 MR. VANBIBBER: And they were both roughly the 9 same age. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. Lieutenant Eddy, how 11 about -- what's your understanding of who are the most 12 vulnerable? 13 MR. EDDY: I believe age does take a big part 14 into it. Somebody new, just working their way into the 15 system. Low income, poverty -- about the same as 16 Mr. VanBibber said. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Why does poverty make them 18 more vulnerable? 19 MR. EDDY: Do sexual acts for food, for extra 20 tray, commissary, drugs. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you have a contraband 22 problem in your facility? 244 1 MR. EDDY: Yes, we do. Right now we have a 2 pretty good heroine problem. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: How does it get in? 4 MR. EDDY: Through the anal. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: In their anus? 6 MR. EDDY: In -- yes, anal cavity. 7 MS. ELLIS: Oh, anally transport it. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 9 MR. EDDY: They will anally bring it in. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: But who is bringing it in? 11 MR. EDDY: Inmates. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Work release, or -- 13 MR. EDDY: Work release, new intakes, going to 14 court. We have had them drop it off at court. You 15 know, we do get quite a few tips from the public that 16 will call in and know somebody that's coming and say, 17 "Hey, he's bringing in heroine, just want to give you a 18 heads up." We will segregate them, turn off their 19 water, go get a warrant if we have to. Most generally 20 they extract it themselves, and we charge them with 21 conveyance into a penal institution. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Why not just do a body cavity 245 1 search and pull it out of there? 2 MR. EDDY: For us to do a body cavity search 3 we have to go through the prosecutors, we have to get a 4 search warrant. A doctor has to perform the body 5 cavity search also, we cannot perform it. 6 MS. ELLIS: I see. 7 MR. EDDY: By state law. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: What about strip searches? 9 Who is authorized to do that at your facility? 10 MR. EDDY: Shift commanders can do it, I can 11 do it, authorize them, as long as it is noted. I have 12 to have a verifiable reason why you've done the strip 13 search, a letter to myself and to the warden, as far as 14 the shift commander telling us the reason why. And we 15 give -- we actually have to give them verbal 16 authorization to go on with their strip search. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: And can it be cross-gender? 18 MR. EDDY: No -- 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Can male -- 20 MR. EDDY: No, definitely -- 21 MR. MCFARLAND: A female officer never does a 22 strip search on a male inmate? 246 1 MR. EDDY: Definitely not. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 3 MR. EDDY: That is -- that would bring 4 internal -- 5 MR. MCFARLAND: How about under the previous 6 wardens? Was that always the case, that you couldn't 7 have strip searches cross-gender? 8 MR. EDDY: It's never happened any since I've 9 been there, that I am aware of. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And what about 11 pat-downs? 12 MR. EDDY: Pat-downs is not supposed to be. 13 In some circumstances, I have known of Sergeant 14 Easterling patting down male inmates when she ain't had 15 anybody. She will use the back of her hands, and not 16 the palm, so you can't feel, but you still can feel an 17 object. That is -- pat-down is legal like that in the 18 State of Ohio. 19 We try to stay away from it. It's always 20 female-female, male-male, even as far as taking 21 photographs of tattoos, or fingerprints, or anything 22 like that. We try to keep it male-male, female-female. 247 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Lieutenant Eddy, who are the 2 likely predators in your facility, sexual predators? 3 What's the profile? 4 MR. EDDY: I don't know if you can put a 5 profile on it, or not. It can be anybody, from a 6 low-class poverty person to a warden to anybody. I 7 don't think you can actually put a finger on to them to 8 profile one of them. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: How about among inmates? Who 10 are more likely than not to be -- more likely than 11 others -- to be sexual predators? 12 MR. EDDY: Your bigger people, your stronger 13 people, the ones that runs the blocks, runs the store, 14 the ones that everybody owes. The person in that 15 capacity that, you know, put out orders, he's got his 16 little clique with him. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you have gangs in your 18 facility? 19 MR. EDDY: I'd say we have a few gang members 20 from here and there. But as far as an actual gang, no. 21 I -- when they get their little cliques, I guess it's 22 just friends, I guess, that's met throughout jail and 248 1 jail, and they get together. But as far as any regular 2 gang, I believe we have gang members in there, but not 3 like a full gang, no. 4 MS. ELLIS: Mr. Eddy, in all of your years of 5 experience, is it your thinking that perhaps inmates 6 come anticipating that they may be subjected to abuse 7 in your prison? Is there word on the street, to your 8 knowledge, that individuals fear coming into that 9 facility because they could possibly be abused in so 10 many different ways? 11 MR. EDDY: I think some do, that's been 12 sexually assaulted there. I think some of them would 13 be afraid to come back. I mean, who wouldn't be? We 14 have had people coming in there for -- God, I can't 15 tell you -- 20 and 30 times, you know, and know these 16 people. They come up, they talk to you, and to them 17 it's just like a -- it seems like a second home. 18 But I feel that somebody that's been sexually 19 assaulted, yes. They would be scared to death to come 20 here. I think your people 18 and 19 years old, first 21 time going to jail, they're scared to death to come in 22 there. Some of the older people that's been straight 249 1 and narrow get arrested, and you know, they're scared 2 to death to come in there, because everybody hears 3 stories. 4 Everybody watches a lot of stories on TV. 5 Prison rape on TV is just -- it's everywhere. I think 6 the -- 7 MS. ELLIS: Now, the commander indicated this 8 morning that sometimes when inmates are coming through 9 the booking process, that they say, "Don't put me in a 10 room with a certain type of individual," indicating 11 that they may be afraid of being assaulted. 12 Would this be a good time, a good juncture, a 13 good place to educate individuals about their rights, 14 as far as sexual assault is concerned? 15 MR. EDDY: I think it would be a great place 16 for us to update our screening process through the 17 medical questionnaire to add questions and so forth 18 like that, "Have you ever been sexually assaulted here? 19 Do you feel a threat? Do you, you know, have any 20 problems with anybody that's in here?" 21 We do have some people that come in and say, 22 "Hey, don't put me with that guy, he broke into my 250 1 sister's house last week." You know, we get court 2 orders every day for no contact in between people. 3 We got our door going to our max one block and 4 our max three, the female side, hung with court orders 5 to keep people away from each other, just because 6 they're either in the same case, or they're testifying 7 against each other. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: When the commander indicated 9 earlier that some inmates will say, "Don't put me in 10 with a baby raper," I think was the term -- 11 MR. EDDY: Yes. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Aren't they actually saying, 13 "Because I will beat the pulp out of that person?" 14 MR. EDDY: That's exactly what they're saying. 15 Most people that come in with a charge of gross sexual 16 imposition, importuning, or so forth, some charge like 17 that, we automatically -- most people 18 automatically -- the booking officer, or what -- will 19 instruct him not to say nothing about their charges 20 back there. "If you feel threatened or if anybody 21 threatens you, you need to go to an officer 22 immediately, so we can get you moved out of there for 251 1 your safety." 2 Whether they're a baby raper or not, we're in 3 charge of their safety. We oversee them. It's our job 4 to make sure they're safe, no matter what their charge 5 is. 6 MS. ELLIS: Lieutenant, earlier Nurse Rhodes 7 indicated that, in her experience, there have not been 8 any transgender individuals to come through. In your 9 many years, have you had any transgenders? 10 MR. EDDY: We had one gentleman come in, and 11 he said he was. We put him back in the male block. It 12 was kind of strange. 13 And then I can't remember if I got a report, 14 or he asked me back there, and he said he was 15 transgender, so I took him straight to the doctor. The 16 doctor was actually there that day, and I had the 17 doctor to check, so I would know where to place this 18 individual. And he was actually lying. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: He was actually a female? 20 MR. EDDY: He was actually a male. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: He was actually a male? Okay. 22 MS. CHUNN: Lieutenant, how often do you meet 252 1 with your commanders and sergeants, and all the folks 2 within your line of command, to talk about the 3 expectations around employee behavior? 4 MR. EDDY: Like I say, we have a shift 5 briefing at the beginning of each shift. I meet with 6 the men. 7 Also, each month we try to set up a sergeants 8 meeting for the sergeants and myself and the warden. 9 We sit down and discuss ideas, discuss problems we 10 have, discuss changes. We try to do that every month, 11 frequently. 12 MS. CHUNN: Is there ever any training that 13 occurs in those meetings? 14 MR. EDDY: No, I don't think training, but a 15 lot of sharing, I guess, of information. 16 MS. CHUNN: Setting priorities? 17 MR. EDDY: Setting priorities, setting 18 standards. Right now we've got a -- we set up three 19 panels to change the ways we do linen change, to change 20 the ways we do visits, laundry exchange. We're trying 21 to change ways to make it easier and quicker for us, 22 and less staff to do it. 253 1 So, we are taking steps to correct a lot of 2 the problems that we foresee we have. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Lieutenant Eddy, who are you 4 -- among your staff would you be most worried about 5 getting romantically involved with an inmate? Who are 6 the likely perpetrators, consensual or otherwise? 7 MR. EDDY: That's a tough one. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: At this facility, have you 9 ever had an occasion to, you know, run into a staff 10 member who was falling for an inmate? 11 MR. EDDY: We had one ex-employee that -- she 12 was, like, too touchy feely kind of a person, you know? 13 Didn't matter if it was an inmate or what. Every time 14 you turned around, she was either rubbing your 15 shoulder, or coming up behind you and giving you a 16 massage, or you know, and you'd just have to tell her 17 to get away from you. She would have been most likely 18 for me to, and she did so. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: What happened to her? 20 MR. EDDY: She -- I believe she quit. She 21 wound up marrying an ex-inmate. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Did she have any interaction 254 1 with that inmate while he was an inmate? 2 MR. EDDY: I would say yes. I took it to the 3 past wardens. 4 See, like I was telling you about our PPM form 5 23, you've got to notify us if you knew anybody before. 6 She never filled one out. I knew the guy, I went to 7 school with him. She was nowhere around, but she said 8 she was his boyfriend (sic) before, in school. And, 9 you know, I went to school with him, I knew that was a 10 lie, so I advised him of that. And she let him get 11 married, so -- she finally quit, though. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Is there a lot of mandatory 13 overtime at your facility? 14 MR. EDDY: There is a lot of overtime offered, 15 in the sense that if somebody calls off sick or they're 16 on vacation, we have a seniority list it goes through. 17 And we also take a list to where it's, like, a 18 volunteer, whether you want called. Because we have a 19 lot of COs that do not want called for overtime, 20 period. They don't want no overtime, whatsoever. So 21 we go -- made a seniority list out of people that wants 22 overtime for each shift. So that's the list we go by. 255 1 If it does not get filled, then usually they 2 will either order somebody in, or they will freeze 3 somebody on that shift, and then they will try to get 4 somebody to come in early and split the hours. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Now, by "freeze," you mean 6 they stay longer than eight hours? 7 MR. EDDY: They're ordered to stay. Ten-hour 8 shifts we work, Sir. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: How long can you freeze 10 somebody? 11 MR. EDDY: I won't let nobody work over 16 12 hours, or I try to. We have had people work over 16 13 hours here lately, and I, you know, got a hold of the 14 shift commanders and I advised them, "No, we don't work 15 over 16 hours; 16 hours, you're off." 16 MR. MCFARLAND: And, Officer, why is that? 17 Why do you limit it to 16 hours? 18 MR. EDDY: I feel it's a safety reason. I 19 can't have somebody to work 19, 20 hours, go home and 20 get 2 and 3 hours of sleep, and come back. I don't 21 feel their safety -- they're putting their co-workers 22 at risk, they're putting the facility at risk, they're 256 1 putting the inmates at risk. I don't feel they have 2 had enough rest to perform their duties accurately. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, what about performing 4 their duties during the 15th, 16th, 18th hour, not just 5 the next day, but do you think there is a security risk 6 there? 7 MR. EDDY: There can be, if they don't go home 8 and get any rest. I at least want people to have at 9 least eight hours off in between a shift. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: And if they're a rover for 16 11 hours, they might be a little less than diligent about 12 getting in and around the various cell blocks, right? 13 MR. EDDY: Yes. A lot of times, if somebody 14 works a double or anything like that, the shift 15 commander will ask them, "What post do you want? Do 16 you want to go down to sit in minimum? Do you want to 17 relax? Do you want to go up in control or do you want 18 to go to booking?" 19 Usually, somebody working overtime has an 20 option to where they want to work. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Is there a limitation on where 22 someone who is volunteering for overtime can request to 257 1 be posted? 2 MR. EDDY: They do request. And a lot of 3 times, the shift commanders will place them where they 4 request, if they're doing overtime. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: You have any concerns about 6 that, somebody who keeps volunteering for overtime, as 7 long as he can be in a particular cell block? 8 MR. EDDY: Since you brought it up, I think 9 that would raise suspicion, yes. That would definitely 10 raise a suspicion. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Does that -- can you think of 12 a situation where the -- where that has been the case, 13 in your 10 years? 14 MR. EDDY: I cannot. The place they would 15 want to do it probably would be minimum, to where they 16 had contact with inmates, but nobody wants to work 17 minimum. So, you know, I just don't see it. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: That's the G and H? 19 MR. EDDY: Yes, Sir. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, you've got 119 other 21 witnesses there -- 22 MR. EDDY: Right. 258 1 MR. MCFARLAND: -- if you've got a thing going 2 with one of the inmates. So it might be more desirable 3 to be assigned to one of the A through F blocks, right? 4 MR. EDDY: It could be, as far as a rover, 5 yes. You have more access to more people, yes. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, especially with an 7 overworked control operator, who is lucky if he can 8 even take his eyes off the 44 monitors once an hour. 9 MR. EDDY: That is true. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: What are the warning signals, 11 in your mind, that you have a problem with a 12 staff -- possible staff sexual misconduct? What are 13 the red flags for you? 14 MR. EDDY: A lot of red flags is -- I have a 15 system in my office where I can go and watch all the 16 cameras in my office, too. I can get into the system, 17 and I can watch people. I watch minimum desk. I watch 18 how inmates will surround it when certain officers are 19 there. I will say, "Who is there?" 20 Another good thing too is the officer is 21 always at a certain spot where the person is they want 22 to have a relationship with, or whatever. You see what 259 1 I'm saying? Hard to find them. We have actually found 2 notes before, so -- 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Notes? 4 MR. EDDY: Notes that they've dropped on the 5 floor, so forth. A lot of officers will bring notes to 6 me that -- inmates have wrote them poems, or romantic, 7 or dirty, disgusting gestures on it that they would 8 like to do. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Officer VanBibber, what is one 10 thing that you think would make sexual assault of any 11 kind less likely in your facility? What is one thing 12 that could be done? If you were the warden, what would 13 be something you would do? 14 MR. VANBIBBER: Let's start with I would never 15 want the warden's job. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. What would you 17 recommend to the warden, just one thing, whether it 18 costs money or not, what's the one thing you would 19 recommend? 20 MR. VANBIBBER: One thing? 21 MR. MCFARLAND: I'll take two, if you want, 22 but -- 260 1 MR. VANBIBBER: Staffing. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: More staff? 3 MS. ELLIS: Staffing. 4 MR. VANBIBBER: Staffing, cameras, training. 5 I'm always open to training, new things. Schooling, 6 you know, if it's possible to send us through schooling 7 for different -- you know, possibly like helping people 8 get their degrees, you know, finding some way to help 9 them better themselves, betterment for the facility. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: You mean the staff or the 11 inmates? 12 MR. VANBIBBER: The staff. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. What about programming? 14 MR. EDDY: Education is a big key in any 15 facility. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Of the inmates? 17 MR. EDDY: For the inmates, yes. We have a 18 very good programs officer, I feel, and she does set up 19 a lot of programs. She is in there a lot. She will 20 help them with their GED, she will have Ohio University 21 students come down, also help the inmates to get their 22 GED, have them take their tests. We have actually had 261 1 people get their GED while they was incarcerated there. 2 I believe it was maybe one person, but you 3 know, one is better than none. So -- but education is 4 definitely a big part of anything, especially PREA. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: A question to both of you. 6 And I'm not trying to beat up on Warden Tolson's 7 predecessor, but this survey was taken shortly after 8 the departure of his predecessor. 9 So, how would you characterize or describe 10 the -- how important sexual assault and prevention was 11 to the previous warden? Officer, VanBibber? 12 (Pause.) 13 MR. MCFARLAND: As everybody stares at the 14 table. 15 MR. EDDY: I can sum it up real quick. I 16 don't think he cared about it. I think he was a sexual 17 predator himself. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: And was that -- would you say 19 that was the general scuttlebutt among the staff? 20 MR. EDDY: When you've got 16-year-old girls 21 running around with you, I would say it is. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 262 1 MS. ELLIS: What about inmates? Were they 2 aware of his -- 3 MR. EDDY: Sure was. Judge was aware. 4 Everybody was aware. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Was he ever charged? 6 MR. EDDY: No, Sir. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Is it a crime to have carnal 8 knowledge with a 16-year-old? 9 MR. EDDY: I guess not in that county. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Officer, VanBibber, what's 11 your -- would you disagree with that? It's kind of 12 hard to disagree with your boss there, but you know, as 13 you recall the way life was before the middle of 2007, 14 what was the atmosphere? Was it pretty, "We don't care 15 what's going on, sexually?" 16 MR. VANBIBBER: No, it was more along the 17 lines of low morale with staff, low morale with 18 inmates. I think he was more worried about keeping his 19 job, keeping the public happy. He was more worried 20 about politics than about actually governing a 21 facility. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Did this stuff, these rumors, 263 1 ever show up in the papers? 2 MR. VANBIBBER: Yes. 3 MS. ELLIS: They did? 4 MR. MCFARLAND: And did the corrections 5 commission that oversees this facility do anything 6 about it? 7 MR. EDDY: Not to my knowledge. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Only until he had his second 9 sexual harassment claim was he invited to resign. Is 10 that correct? 11 MR. EDDY: Second or third. I'm not positive, 12 but he had a few. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you have an 14 opinion -- well, that's -- 15 (Laughter.) 16 MR. EDDY: Mine would be worse than Sergeant 17 Easterling's, I will tell you that much. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 19 MS. ELLIS: Oh, yes. 20 MS. CHUNN: Lieutenant Eddy, let me -- I was 21 sitting here, sort of wrestling with what I -- how I 22 can say this to you. 264 1 I really believe that good security is the 2 heart of any facility like this. And you seem to be 3 seasoned enough to understand its importance, that 4 sexual abuse, whether it's staff on an inmate or an 5 inmate on an inmate, is a safety issue and a security 6 issue, as well as a morale issue. 7 But certainly a person in security understands 8 the implications of that. Because when there are 9 problems there, there are problems in other places, 10 too. 11 MR. EDDY: Right, that's -- 12 MS. CHUNN: Tell me -- Yes, here comes the 13 question. I always have to put my context out there, 14 first. 15 What are you going to do differently, as a 16 result of these findings, this experience in 17 testifying, all of that? What are you going to do 18 differently, assuming that, of course, you and the 19 warden shall agree on whatever course of action that 20 you may take? But the brunt of it often lies with the 21 chief of security to make it happen, because you're 22 there all the time. 265 1 Tell me what's going through your head, in 2 terms of how you are going to make this real. 3 MR. EDDY: I believe that we have got to come 4 up with better policies, more training, more education 5 on it, more education towards the inmates on it, 6 especially our staff, make sure everything is followed 7 through. We've just got to make a lot of changes. We 8 have to make changes for this, and that's what we're 9 attempting to do. 10 We're going to have to set down more rules and 11 regulations that the officers need to follow. We've 12 got to keep our eyes open more. We've got to watch 13 inmates more. Just somebody's motion, just the way 14 somebody is feeling, whether they're crying in their 15 block or not, an officer just walks by them, he needs 16 to walk in there and find out why they're crying. He 17 needs to find out what happened. 18 We need to put more pressure on our officers 19 to carry out our policies and procedure when we get 20 them ready. 21 MS. CHUNN: Thank you. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Officer VanBibber, have you 266 1 ever seen in the facility any poster, anything that is 2 accessible to an inmate that says, "Sexual assault is 3 illegal, you don't have to put up with it, here is what 4 to do with it?" 5 MR. VANBIBBER: Those exact words? No. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: No. Anything -- any 7 information on any -- in any of the housing units that 8 says anything about sexual assault? 9 MR. VANBIBBER: Not directly sexual assault, 10 but I do go in the blocks quite often. I rove usually 11 three times a day, and there is some information above 12 the phones, the whole phone system, message line for 13 crime tips. But that's about the extent of what I have 14 seen. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. I may have missed it, 16 but I don't -- I didn't see any poster anywhere that 17 said sexual assault is prohibited. 18 MR. EDDY: There is a set of inmate rules back 19 there. Part of the rules is sexual acts from inmate to 20 inmate. I believe it might be a serious violation. 21 Sexual misconduct, I think, might be on there, also. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Are we talking about this 267 1 one-page document? 2 MS. CHUNN: Is the -- 3 MR. EDDY: It's actually two pages. One of 4 them lists serious majors and minors -- yes, there is 5 something on there somewhere about the -- 6 MR. VANBIBBER: It would be the opposite page, 7 Ma'am. 8 MR. EDDY: The opposite pages show the rules 9 for -- 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, it's one legal-sized 11 page, right? 12 MR. EDDY: Yes. Yes, Sir. Not a lot, I grant 13 it, but it is against the rules, and I believe it does 14 state that on there, about -- 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, serious violation number 16 five, "Physical contact or attempt to make physical 17 contact with members of the opposite sex," number six, 18 "Participation of homosexual behavior, sexual acts of 19 any kind, such as, but not limited to, hugging, 20 kissing, holding hands, and touching." All right. 21 MR. EDDY: Yes. 22 MS. ELLIS: Lieutenant Eddy, this is what you 268 1 were referring to earlier when I asked you about 2 whether there was anything posted? 3 MR. EDDY: Yes, Ma'am. 4 MS. ELLIS: I see. Well -- 5 MR. MCFARLAND: I want to thank both of you 6 for your time, for coming all the way out here, for 7 your work, and your commitment to change. 8 And we will take a very short five-minute 9 break, and then hear from Warden Tolson. Thank you. 10 MR. EDDY: Thank you. 11 MS. ELLIS: A very short break. 12 (A brief recess was taken.) 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Back on the record. 14 Welcome, Warden. Would you please stand and raise your 15 right hand? 16 Whereupon, 17 JEREMY TOLSON 18 was called as a witness and, having been first 19 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 20 EXAMINATION 21 MR. MCFARLAND: What is your full name, Sir? 22 MR. TOLSON: My name is Jeremy Tolson. 269 1 MR. MCFARLAND: And how long have you been 2 warden at the jail? 3 MR. TOLSON: Since the middle of 4 2007 -- actually, May 30, 2007. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: And, prior to that time, what 6 was your post there? 7 MR. TOLSON: Prior to that time, I began there 8 in 1998 as a corrections officer, worked as a 9 corrections officer for approximately a year, was 10 promoted to sergeant, worked sergeant for approximately 11 two-and-a-half to three years, promoted to lieutenant, 12 then promoted to deputy warden, and most recently, 13 promoted to -- 14 MR. MCFARLAND: I'm sorry, I can't hear you, 15 Sir. Could you -- 16 MR. TOLSON: Most recently promoted to warden. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 18 MR. TOLSON: After lieutenant and deputy 19 warden positions. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: How long were you lieutenant? 21 MR. TOLSON: Approximately a year. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: And then you were the deputy 270 1 warden for what period? 2 MR. TOLSON: I took over in 2002. So, 3 approximately five years. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: And then that deputy warden 5 position was eliminated, and -- is that correct? 6 MR. TOLSON: Correct. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: And some of those 8 responsibilities were given to Mr. Conrath last year, 9 is that correct? 10 MR. TOLSON: I split the duties up, and I gave 11 some to Lieutenant Eddy, I gave some to Mr. Conrath, I 12 gave some to the shift commanders. I kind of, I guess, 13 reorganized how we look at some stuff. 14 As you, you know, see that -- you know, I'm 15 not exactly happy with, as you put it, what I 16 inherited. I think a lot of changes need made, and 17 hopefully that's been echoed by my staff here 18 throughout the day, that that's certainly our goal, 19 that's certainly what my objective is. And, you know, 20 that's where we're going from here. 21 As part of getting rid of the deputy warden 22 spot, I also alleviated the administrative lieutenant 271 1 spot, because I felt the two positions that I created 2 in their place served our facility and -- in a better 3 way. 4 The two positions that I created was, of 5 course, Mr. Conrath's spot which, you know, as I said 6 in my opening statement, I felt that the person outside 7 of the chain of the command, with the ability to do 8 internal investigations, puts him in a situation where 9 he is unbiased, he only answers to me, he doesn't 10 answer to Lieutenant Eddy, or any other shift 11 commanders. Therefore, I am getting a very thorough 12 investigation. And he answers to me alone, so that's 13 working out very well for us. 14 And the other position was a network 15 administrator position, which -- I think technology is 16 something that, you know, our facilities are going to 17 have to pay more attention to, obviously, you know, in 18 perspective to PREA, you know, camera, line of sights, 19 you know, catching egress routes out of the bathrooms, 20 monitoring your housing units. 21 Some of this stuff were big no-no's back when 22 we first started, as far as putting cameras in 272 1 bathrooms, or even near a bathroom, or in areas where 2 inmates could change clothing. And I think the tide is 3 kind of changing a little bit, with some of 4 this -- with the accusations related to PREA, and the 5 protection of the inmates against sexual assault. 6 You know, I think that that network 7 administrator position that I have added is a big 8 bonus, to help me with, you know, getting our digital 9 recording systems up to speed, so on and so forth. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Warden, I was remiss. I 11 didn't give you an opportunity to make any part of your 12 opening statement. Did you want to do that, or -- 13 MR. TOLSON: No, I -- 14 MR. MCFARLAND: -- do you want to submit it 15 for the record? 16 MR. TOLSON: Basically, like I had informed 17 you, I read a lot of the transcripts from the prison 18 sessions that you had. It appears to me that we're 19 here to answer questions, and that's what I came 20 prepared to do. 21 So, you know, I submitted my opening 22 statement. You guys are more than welcome to -- or I 273 1 assume that you have read that. So, you know, just 2 bearing in mind that the philosophy that I have is, you 3 know, kind of, like I said, echoed with my staff, 4 as -- that I feel that there are some deficiencies in 5 our policy, there are some deficiencies in the way 6 things were handled. 7 And I certainly am taking steps forward to, 8 you know, do the best I can to be a more responsible 9 agency in dealing with not just PREA, but other areas 10 of concern that we have, as well. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Warden Tolson, why do you 12 think your institution was rated among the those with 13 the highest incidents of sexual victimization? 14 MR. TOLSON: I guess my opinion on it, like I 15 said in the statement, is that that doesn't matter to 16 me, because I did read the whole -- you know, the whole 17 survey. And I do have an opinion that, you know, 18 initially I thought that the -- you know, the inmates 19 could fabricate, you know, stories, or the inmates may 20 not -- maybe they're not even coming forward, you know, 21 with some of the information. And I just kind of 22 thought it equaled out. 274 1 And whether they -- allegations in the survey 2 are true or not, I feel that I looked at ourself, you 3 know, my agency, I looked at our policies, I looked at 4 our communication, I looked at everything that we do in 5 line to stop that stuff, and it wasn't happening. 6 So, I guess, in my opinion, the survey hit 7 pretty hard. I took it very seriously, and I still am 8 taking it very seriously. And I guess I don't want to 9 go on record as saying that, you know, inmates lie, 10 and, you know, the whole nine yards. That's not what 11 I'm here for. 12 So, you know, I guess my goal is to convey to 13 you guys that, you know, for whatever reason, the 14 information is in there. It's in there, and we're 15 trying to, you know, take the steps to ensure that it 16 isn't in there again. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: So you believe that there is 18 sexual assault going on in your facility? 19 MR. TOLSON: I don't currently believe there 20 is sexual assault going on in my facility, no. Since 21 the survey came out, I think it's clear to my 22 staff -- and not just the ones that are here, but the 275 1 remainder that are at home, working, right now -- that 2 we have a zero tolerance for this type of, you know, 3 stuff. 4 I'm not saying it can't happen; it can happen 5 to any facility, no matter how much PREA material you 6 have out there. You know, predators can take advantage 7 of other individuals, whether it's staff or inmates, 8 and it can always happen, no matter what you've got in 9 place. But I think the important part is 10 your -- you've got the right mechanisms in place to 11 take care of it, if it does happen. 12 So, I don't think I currently have any active 13 situations, that I'm aware of. But it -- you know, 14 that could happen. I could come back from this hearing 15 and I could have something sitting on my desk stating 16 that, you know, another inmate, you know, raped another 17 inmate, or I have a problem with an officer. 18 But I guess, like -- I mean, I'm going to say 19 a lot that, you know, I feel that we are getting to a 20 place to where I am confident, or getting more 21 confident in, you know, my employees' ability to ensure 22 that those will be handled in a more appropriate 276 1 manner. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: But even your investigator 3 doesn't have any training in investigations, let alone 4 sexual assault investigations. 5 MR. TOLSON: That's correct. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Does that concern you, and 7 what are you going to do about that? 8 MR. TOLSON: Well, I'm going to train him. I 9 have a lot of stuff on my agenda, not just for PREA, 10 but for -- you know, for a lot of information. 11 We discussed the difficulty that I have, as 12 far as working with a 15-member board, versus a normal, 13 you know, sheriff's department in the State of Ohio 14 would be, you know, run by one sheriff. I am hired by 15 a 15-panel board, which -- it's a bit difficult to, you 16 know, pass policies such as this magnitude when you 17 have 15 different opinions sitting on a panel that have 18 to sign off on your policies. I mean, that's an issue 19 that I look at. 20 But not only that -- I mean, to answer your 21 question directly about Mr. Conrad, he indicated that 22 he has three other sessions set up for the future. 277 1 There has been some discussions on training specific to 2 sexual assault. Again, he is not just a sexual assault 3 investigator. He does, you know, background 4 investigations, he does, you know, IA unrelated 5 to -- internal affairs unrelated to sexual assault. 6 But it is certainly our goal to have some 7 specific training for him related to that, and not just 8 him, but Lieutenant Eddy, as well. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: When? 10 MR. TOLSON: I would like to see it by the end 11 of the year. 12 MS. ELLIS: Warden, how familiar are you with 13 PREA? 14 MR. TOLSON: I guess, on paper, I wouldn't be 15 somebody that you would look at and think that I have 16 had a ton of training in PREA, because I haven't. But, 17 you know, I have done my research on PREA, and I can 18 tell you that I am very familiar with not only the Act, 19 but the process, the goal of this panel, and the goal 20 of the whole system. 21 MS. ELLIS: And what is your sense of urgency 22 in getting the training underway, perhaps appointing 278 1 someone who is specific to PREA, to ensuring that your 2 entire staff has some background and understanding, in 3 terms of PREA and its meaning and its purpose? 4 MR. TOLSON: Well, I'm not going to tell you 5 that I want to get out here next week and I want to 6 have this all fixed, because I don't think that that's 7 appropriate. I am, you know, eager to get better 8 policies in place, but I am also eager to get the right 9 policies in place. I want to get the right procedures 10 in place, and I think that that takes time. 11 I mean, it's been talked about, how, you know, 12 some of the officers, in regards to our policies, do 13 things a little different than what the actual policy 14 states. We do things different, in accordance with 15 PREA, than what our actual policy states. I am 16 confident my people are handling the situations 17 appropriately, I just don't have the documentation at 18 this point to back it up. 19 That's something that I want to happen, but I 20 don't want to rush the process, because I want to make 21 sure that when I do act upon it, I am acting, you know, 22 for the best of the facility, as far as putting the 279 1 correct, you know, policies in place. I don't want to 2 create a policy tomorrow and realize that I made some 3 mistakes, or I forgot some things that maybe I should 4 have had in. 5 I want to -- you know, I have been talking 6 with some other facilities. Jim Dennis, from CCNO, is 7 an individual that I hold in high regard. And, in my 8 opinion he is one of the foremost leaders when it comes 9 to PREA. And I have reviewed his policies and worked 10 with him on some of these issues, too. 11 So, I guess the urgency is there, but I guess 12 I am more urgent to get it right. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, Warden, how did your 14 15-member corrections commission react when they read 15 about -- that they were running or overseeing one of 16 the worst jails in the United States, in regard to 17 sexual assault? 18 MR. TOLSON: The particular -- 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Did that get their attention? 20 MR. TOLSON: You got their attention. The 21 particular meeting that I was in at the time that that 22 came out had some other issues that were pretty 280 1 pressing, too. 2 So, you know, I can't really say that it was 3 dominating the meeting. We had the successful suicide, 4 which -- well, alleged successful suicide; we haven't 5 finished the investigation at this point -- but that 6 was something that was in the same meeting. So, there 7 were some other issues there. It was certainly 8 discussed. 9 But I certainly wasn't reprimanded. I assured 10 them the same stuff that I am assuring you, that I am 11 taking it seriously, and you know, I felt that it was a 12 survey that hit me at a bad time. I had started two 13 months prior to the survey hitting. I did not get the 14 opportunity to go through the initial training that 15 they had with Warden Gillespie prior to me about this 16 PREA survey, which -- so I -- you know, I wasn't up to 17 par, so to speak, on the exact function of the survey 18 when they did come in and do it. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, what did your board tell 20 you, or permit you to do to fix this problem of sexual 21 assault, if anything? 22 MR. TOLSON: I didn't get any certain 281 1 guidelines. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Did you propose any strategy 3 to fix the problem? 4 MR. TOLSON: I informed them that there would 5 be many changes coming in regard to PREA, yes. I told 6 them policy changes would be coming. 7 You know, I didn't get specific into the point 8 to where I have implemented that phone contact for the 9 inmates back in the housing unit, but I generalized the 10 statement -- of course, I'm used to working with them, 11 as well, so I understand what they would rather hear, 12 versus giving them every little detail that I'm going 13 to do. As long as I'm handling the problem, they seem 14 to be fine with that. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Do they approve your budget? 16 MR. TOLSON: Yes, they do. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Did you propose to them that 18 some of these fixes are going to cost some more money? 19 MR. TOLSON: I am certainly going to propose 20 that in my next -- my budget that comes up in -- next 21 month, actually. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: But the cost of any of these 282 1 fixes wasn't discussed at this last meeting? 2 MR. TOLSON: No, Sir. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: How easy is it for you to get 4 a quorum at these meetings of the commission? 5 MR. TOLSON: I've had some difficulty, as of 6 late. We did add a county to our board, which, you 7 know, upped our members, which ups our quorum. So it 8 is a little -- I have had two or three occasions where 9 I haven't had a quorum to even have a meeting. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: You have not had a quorum? 11 MR. TOLSON: Correct. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 13 MR. TOLSON: And -- 14 MR. MCFARLAND: And how often do you meet? 15 MR. TOLSON: A lot less than we probably ought 16 to, most certainly. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, you've met four times in 18 the last 12 months, I think you told me. 19 MR. TOLSON: Well, in the last -- I was 20 looking this year. I would say four times in the last 21 eight months, yes. 22 MS. CHUNN: Wow. 283 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 2 MR. TOLSON: That would be -- well, and you've 3 got a handful of people on that board that do care, 4 you've got a handful of people who probably don't. 5 Some don't show up. 6 On those meetings that didn't happen, you did 7 have some members show up that were very upset that, 8 you know, some of the other members didn't, but -- 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Who are the representatives 10 who you report to? There are some judges? 11 MR. TOLSON: According to statute, you have 12 the presiding county commissioner, the presiding police 13 court judge, and the sheriff of each county. So, 14 technically, 15 members that we would have. We 15 actually have 14, because one judge sent a letter in, 16 refusing to send a rep. So we actually have 14. 17 That could be any number of people. The 18 judges send delegates, the commissioners send 19 delegates, the sheriffs send delegates, as well. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: What kind of delegates? I 21 mean, how high up are these delegates that come to 22 these quarterly meetings where you have difficulty 284 1 getting quorums? 2 MR. TOLSON: As far as supervisory, we have 3 individuals on there that probably have never been 4 supervisors. We have a bailiff -- 5 MR. MCFARLAND: A bailiff was a delegate to 6 your commission? 7 MR. TOLSON: Yes, correct. I have a transport 8 officer, who is a deputy for one of the agencies. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: The guy who drives the inmates 10 around in the van? 11 MR. TOLSON: Yes, Sir. A county commissioner, 12 or a county auditor is on our board. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: A county auditor is on the 14 corrections commission? 15 MR. TOLSON: Correct. I have a clerk of court 16 is on our board, as well. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: The clerk? 18 MR. TOLSON: Difficult. Lack of corrections 19 knowledge is a -- 20 MR. MCFARLAND: I guess so. 21 MR. TOLSON: -- is an issue, but we do 22 have -- the sheriffs usually don't send too many 285 1 delegates. That's where I get my corrections 2 experience, as far as the sheriffs go, but -- 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, yes -- 4 MR. TOLSON: -- it's difficult. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, it is difficult. The 6 only way you can pass policy is through this 7 commission, right? 8 MR. TOLSON: Correct. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: The only way you can get more 10 money for PREA enforcement is through this commission, 11 right? 12 MR. TOLSON: Correct. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: And the sheriffs don't send 14 the delegate, and those who do send them send their 15 bailiffs and their court clerks, or maybe their tax 16 auditor. Is that what you're saying? 17 MR. TOLSON: I am saying that we have members 18 on our board that have those titles. But we also do 19 have commissioners that come to the meeting. Actually, 20 usually, the commissioners don't send delegates. They 21 usually are the one elected officials that we do get, 22 you know, in the room. 286 1 Because it is -- jails in, you know, in our 2 area -- or at least our jail in our area -- is the 3 biggest budget around the area for all five of these 4 counties, because they each divvy up a percentage that 5 they pay, you know, towards the incarceration of their 6 inmates, based off of whatever bed allotment they would 7 choose to have at our facility. Our largest county 8 would be Athens County, who has 76 of the, you know, 9 218 beds. So -- 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you have any concern of 11 legal liability for your -- for a sexual assault victim 12 suing your facility? 13 MR. TOLSON: Sure. I guess I have nightmares 14 of legal liability in my position, not only on sexual 15 assault, but -- 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Sure. 17 MR. TOLSON: -- suicides. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Suicide. 19 MR. TOLSON: Going through that process at the 20 current time. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Has it been sued -- 22 MR. TOLSON: No -- 287 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Has anybody said yet -- 2 MR. TOLSON: Haven't heard at this point. 3 Again, you know, it happened a little over a month ago, 4 so I expect that to be the case. Very tragic. Don't 5 like to see any of the, you know, incidents such as 6 that to happen inside a facility. 7 You know, but I can say that the information 8 that has been reviewed by myself and BCI&I, which is 9 the Bureau of Criminal Investigation and 10 Identification, the Nelsonville Police Department, I 11 have the information that they are looking at. And, 12 you know, in my opinion, my officers did what they 13 needed to do in that particular situation. But that 14 doesn't mean you're not going to be sued, or sitting in 15 court trying to answer for, you know, whatever tiniest 16 mistake that one officer made. 17 Yes, I'm absolutely worried about not only 18 suicide, but sexual assault, just an assault in 19 general, or an officer getting hurt. You know, you 20 name it, there is a lot of liability in my position. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you think that you 22 need -- that you're adequately staffed? 288 1 MR. TOLSON: No. I mean, I don't think any 2 corrections professional ever thinks they're adequately 3 staffed. But you do the best with what you have. 4 If somebody wanted to cut me a check for some 5 more officers, I would be more than happy to try and 6 put the appropriate plan in place for them to, you 7 know, help with the process of running this facility. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Where would you put your next 9 extra correctional officer? 10 MR. TOLSON: Where would I put him? 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, Sir. 12 MR. TOLSON: Well, I would have to sit down, 13 and I would have to look at the shifts. Of course, 14 midnight shift is a little slower than the rest of the 15 shifts, as far as, you know, their overall operations. 16 Day shifts, afternoon shifts deal with courts, and the 17 inmates are awake -- well, supposed to be awake; I know 18 midnight shifts sometimes they aren't -- but they're 19 up, our programs are going. There is just -- there is 20 more things going on through the day. 21 So, I would probably look to, you know, 22 obviously, you know, put the appropriate number on each 289 1 shift, just -- I would have to look and see, you know, 2 how many I would need on, you know, midnights, and can 3 I spare the extra that I do have to actually throw on a 4 day shift or an afternoon shift. 5 But, you know, I don't necessarily think that 6 corrections officers are the answer, either. Sure, a 7 few officers helped. But, you know, I think case 8 managers, individuals such as that, a little more 9 sensitive to listening to what the inmates have to say 10 may be more valuable in the -- when it comes to PREA. 11 I think inmates would be a little more apt to talk to 12 an individual that is trained to, you know, have those 13 types of conversations. 14 I'm not saying that my officers don't do a 15 good job, I'm just saying that, you know, some are 16 better at it than others. Instead of inmates picking 17 and choosing, you know, what officer to come talk to, 18 maybe if you assigned them a case manager, it may make 19 it a little easier for these guys to come forward. 20 That could help. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Have you asked for a case 22 manager in your next budget? 290 1 MR. TOLSON: No. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Why not? 3 MR. TOLSON: I haven't asked for any extra 4 staff. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Why not? 6 MR. TOLSON: I know it will be denied, mostly. 7 We just got through with union negotiations -- well, 8 actually, we're not completely through, we're through 9 three of our four bargaining units. 10 I just -- I hear the -- you know, I hear 11 what's said. I know what's -- I know what I can or 12 can't get passed, per se. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Can't get past the corrections 14 commission? 15 MR. TOLSON: Yes. I don't feel that I would 16 be successful in adding those positions. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, if not now, then when? 18 And I'm not -- you know the politics, but it just 19 staggers my imagination that they have had a successful 20 suicide last month, and less than 90 days ago they were 21 named one of the three worst sexual assault venues in 22 the country. 291 1 If that can't get your commission to pony up 2 some additional money, what will it take, a nuclear 3 strike? 4 MR. TOLSON: That's a good question to ask. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Well then, why not ask? 6 MR. TOLSON: Ask the members of my board. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: With all due respect, why 8 don't you ask, and put the onus on them and their 9 bailiffs to vote on it? 10 MR. TOLSON: I mean -- 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Let them be on record -- 12 MS. ELLIS: Exactly. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: -- that they voted down a 14 request for a case manager, or more -- another nurse, 15 or more cameras, or -- let them and their court clerks 16 be personally liable for the lawsuit, rather than you. 17 MR. TOLSON: I guess what -- the situation 18 that I look at is, you know, I am familiar with me 19 being the fifth warden in 10 years. You know, I am 20 familiar with about every two years, something happens 21 and somebody is out this door. I mean, it's a common 22 joke for a lot of the staff at my facility to say that 292 1 the keys that I carry on my hip have an expiration 2 date. 3 I'm not saying that I, you know, fear, per se. 4 If they wanted to, you know, terminate me, certainly 5 am an at-will employee that works at the discretion, 6 you know, of their board. Therefore, if I am an 7 individual that is walking around requesting money 8 every -- you know, every time I turn around, I don't 9 think I will be there very long. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, your predecessor had 11 allegations that were less than flattering, and you 12 have several of your senior staff giving sworn 13 testimony in rather vivid language about your 14 predecessor, and he hung around for four years with 15 allegations of child molestation and two or three 16 sexual harassment charges. I would say that you're 17 Mother Teresa, compared to him. 18 And so, why don't you stick your neck out and 19 ask for what you need to stop this -- 20 MR. TOLSON: Well, I am not -- 21 MR. MCFARLAND: -- this disgraceful report 22 about the facility and sexual victimization, and all 293 1 the other things that are keeping you up at night? 2 MR. TOLSON: I am certainly not saying that I 3 am afraid to stick my neck out. I have no problems 4 doing that. I am just trying to explain, you know, to 5 the panel, you know, a little bit of the politics that 6 happens with these 15-member boards. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh, I hear you. I don't envy 8 you, either. 9 MS. CHUNN: No. 10 MR. TOLSON: Certainly if I was, you know, 11 real chummy with one of the members on the board, I am 12 sure I would stick around a little bit longer. But, 13 you know, that's not my objective. They did not hire 14 me for that, and that's not why I started working in 15 corrections, to be a politician. I -- you know, I work 16 for that board, and I work for that jail. 17 And, you know, my objective is to do the best 18 with what I've got. And, you know, that's what we're 19 trying to do. And if that means that they're willing 20 to give me money, I would certainly take it. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, you've got to ask. 22 MR. TOLSON: You're right, I do have to ask. 294 1 But I am just trying to -- 2 MS. ELLIS: Warden? 3 MR. TOLSON: -- explain the politics. 4 MS. ELLIS: Warden? 5 MR. TOLSON: Yes? 6 MS. ELLIS: Earlier this morning we listened 7 to Commander Easterling talk about the quality of staff 8 that you have. We asked for what are the 9 qualifications for being a CO. And we heard back, that 10 there aren't very many qualifications, that you don't 11 require any specific credentials, that there are other 12 kinds of more elusive areas that you look at in 13 determining whether or not someone is fit for duty, so 14 to speak. 15 So, I am getting the idea that there may be 16 some real problems, in terms of quality of staff. 17 MR. TOLSON: I think we do a pretty good job 18 getting good employees, for the most part. You know, 19 hopefully the individuals that testified today, you 20 know, have echoed that. I believe that they did very 21 well. 22 The problem that we see is we are one of four 295 1 correctional facilities in the City of Nelsonville. 2 And we are probably the lowest paying correctional 3 facility in the City of Nelsonville. There are also 4 some other state prisons that are around our general 5 area. It's very difficult to, as you say, go out and 6 get an individual that is, you know, highly qualified 7 in corrections. So I'm usually starting from the 8 bottom of the barrel, and training them my way. 9 We do require the individuals to be 18 years 10 of age, at least a GED, high school equivalency. Also, 11 drivers license is a -- you know, is a mandated thing, 12 too. We go through the background check. 13 But, I mean, as they have all said, we are a 14 small community. And we do get to know each other a 15 little bit more than, per se, some of these bigger 16 facilities. I know every single person that works in 17 my building. Not just know them, I "know them." I 18 mean, I really know them, I know their family, you 19 know, I know a lot about my personnel. 20 You know, we get some people that may not be 21 the most educated apply for these positions, they may 22 not have, you know, their bachelor's degrees. They may 296 1 not have, you know, any experience whatsoever in 2 corrections, period. They may have been a carpenter 3 or, you know, worked as a masonry individual. 4 But, you know, with the process that I have 5 put in place, as far as hiring, I am trying to give us 6 as much opportunity to actually get to know our people, 7 versus expecting to have a bunch of qualifications. 8 And I think, by doing that, you know, I am getting 9 these, you know, hard-working, honest people that are 10 working in our facility. But if you look at them on 11 paper, they were just an ex-block layer that -- 12 MS. ELLIS: And you indicated at the very 13 beginning of this statement that your intention is to 14 work with what you have, and train them in your way. 15 MR. TOLSON: Yes. 16 MS. ELLIS: So, my question would be, do you 17 have a training budget that allows you to bring in 18 people with the experience and the expertise to bring 19 your staff up to the level of being effective in their 20 job functions? Do you have a training budget 21 specifically for that? 22 MR. TOLSON: I have a training budget 297 1 specifically for training my staff. I do not, 2 unfortunately, have the ability to, if somebody leaves, 3 to not fill that position for a three-and-a-half week 4 class at COT -- I know you guys discussed that. I 5 think that's maybe what you're getting at. 6 When my guys come on, I give them, you know, 7 as much information as I can in the shortest period as 8 I can. We run them through an indoctrination process, 9 you know, which I don't think is the best process. And 10 that's one of them things that, you know, I think that 11 we need to look at. But we do run them through an 12 indoctrination that, you know, includes, you know, 13 corrections 101, you know, basics of, you know, what we 14 expect on the job. And then those individuals go to, 15 you know, on-the-job training for the next couple of 16 weeks. And then -- 17 MR. MCFARLAND: And what about -- if I could 18 just jump in -- what about -- what do you say about 19 sexual assault in your crash course, corrections 101, 20 to your new recruits? 21 MR. TOLSON: Well, currently, we show some 22 videos. But, you know, they're nowhere near the amount 298 1 of education that should be there, that -- 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Are these the "Lock-Up -- 3 MR. TOLSON: -- you know, that's one of the 4 issues -- 5 MR. MCFARLAND: -- USA" videos? 6 MR. TOLSON: Yes. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: And they're about 10 years 8 old? 9 MR. TOLSON: They're about 10 years old. So 10 that was what was in place when I took over. That's 11 currently still what's in place. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Have you looked into what NIC 13 has, National Institute of Corrections? 14 MR. TOLSON: I spoke with her in between 15 breaks here. She is very forthcoming with information. 16 I have, obviously, looked at NIC as a resource, you 17 know, prior to speaking with her in my -- in our 18 current quest to better this process. 19 But there are some good resources on you guys' 20 website as well, as far as books, too, that I have 21 looked at. But they have a lot of training that seems 22 to be more, I guess, pleasing for me, because it's 299 1 going to be, you know, on a computer, self-paced, which 2 is what I need. I can't take that many officers to, 3 you know, train people, because I need them, you know, 4 other places in the facility. 5 You know, I have 60 total staff for 218. You 6 know, of that 60, you know, 34 of those are corrections 7 officers. So about half of my staff are for 8 corrections. And then, you know, I have some 9 supervisors there, too. But it gets pretty difficult 10 when you do have five COs, one sergeant, you know, 11 per -- I say 218, that's our max capacity. But we 12 actually average over 200. 13 So, we're not huge, but if you do the math, 14 you know, the -- we would be comparable with, you know, 15 staff-to-inmate ratios that, you know, aren't great. 16 MS. CHUNN: Warden, I am very concerned about 17 this publication. And I must -- I have to say a lot of 18 words to set the context for my question to you. 19 MR. TOLSON: That's fine. 20 MS. CHUNN: And that is that this is a 21 particularly powerful and influential piece that can 22 affect not only the reputation of your facility, but 300 1 can affect you, as a professional, as well, because a 2 lot of folks will not know when you came to be warden 3 of this facility, they will only know who is there at 4 this particular time. 5 Is there any way you can make this available 6 to your commission members, and schedule some ongoing 7 dialogue about its importance? Because it won't go 8 away next year. And the worst thing that could happen 9 would be to maybe be in this same category next year. 10 Understanding that you have other competing 11 priorities that you must address, what is your plan, 12 though, in terms of any immediate response that gets 13 your commission to begin to share in the responsibility 14 of moving you from where you are now to where you want 15 to be? 16 MR. TOLSON: That's a good question. I 17 haven't put too much thought in how I'm going to 18 motivate my board. I have put more thought in how I'm 19 going to motivate my inmates and my staff. 20 Being that it is an initial process for 21 us -- we have just begun, you know, in the last few 22 months -- you know, like I said, I have a lot of things 301 1 on my agenda. There have been some corrections 2 already, in my opinion, that are going to make us 3 better, initially. 4 I have some things down the road that, you 5 know, are going to be implemented that's going to be 6 corrected. But, you know, I have been more specific to 7 the staff and the inmates. I have not put much thought 8 into what I am going to do to convince my board. 9 MS. CHUNN: I would urge you -- 10 MR. TOLSON: The money issue, obviously -- oh, 11 I'm sorry -- 12 MS. CHUNN: Go ahead. 13 MR. TOLSON: The money issue, you know, should 14 be a question that's asked. And, you know, I don't 15 deny that, you know, that's something that could be 16 approached. But you know, I have given the information 17 out. It is available to them, because I handed it to 18 them in the meeting. 19 So I guess the -- initially, I can just keep, 20 you know, bringing it up. Obviously, the next meeting 21 I have there will probably be some discussion regarding 22 this review panel. So, you know, just initially, off 302 1 the top of my head, it's -- getting them involved is, 2 you know, keeping the issue in front of them. 3 MS. CHUNN: I would urge you to consider the 4 two as not being mutually exclusive, that what you're 5 doing, in terms of getting your staff on board, and 6 acquainting your appointing authority -- and that is 7 your appointing authority, isn't it -- with what you 8 face is extremely important. And I would just urge you 9 to consider the merits of giving it a lot of attention. 10 MR. TOLSON: I fully understand, you know, 11 what you're saying. You know, having worked there for 12 the past 10 years, I guess I'm just trying to stress 13 the point that, you know, I am familiar with trying to, 14 I guess, fix issues without support from the 15 individuals that are on my board, because that's just 16 how things have always been done in our facility. 17 I have, you know, very poor participation from 18 the individuals that are there. And then, even when I 19 do, you know, some of those individuals lack 20 correctional knowledge that is vital, you know. 21 Through the process, you know, I mean, if you're not in 22 corrections, you don't really get it. It's a different 303 1 world, it really is. You can't just, you know, make a 2 decision, you know, about a transport vehicle unless 3 you understand, you know, the security that has to go 4 into it about, you know, putting the cages in, you 5 know, the whole nine yards. And I don't have 6 individuals that are in that frame of mind, as far as, 7 you know, putting security -- putting officer safety 8 first. You know, it's a money issue. 9 MS. CHUNN: Yes, you're quite right. And I 10 would just urge you to consider the liability that they 11 can court, and the way that they may feel if they feel 12 you have not kept them as informed as they needed to 13 be. 14 I would just urge you to consider not whether 15 or not it's a matter of moving quickly, but that you 16 cover your bases, in terms of your appointing authority 17 understanding the implications of being in this status, 18 and the importance to move on. That might be a step 19 before you ask for money, but it would seem to me an 20 extremely important one for you to do, in terms of 21 making sure that they understand. 22 It seems that the staff persons who have 304 1 testified here today have a tremendous amount of hope 2 and confidence in your leadership. How are you going 3 to harness the moment, and get them to understand that 4 what they believe to be a positive change is, in fact, 5 going to be a positive change? 6 MS. ELLIS: Is coming. 7 MR. TOLSON: I think that I am currently doing 8 that, and I think that that is the reflection that you 9 guys have seen today, is as a result -- as to what I 10 have been doing, and I am going to keep pursuing it in 11 that manner. 12 Like I said, you know, I'm not an individual 13 that works behind my desk. I actually book inmates in. 14 I do pat-downs. I change people out. I walk back 15 through the blocks, too. I do the tasks that these 16 corrections officers do. And, you know, when I am 17 doing that, I think I, in turn, get respect from 18 the -- not only the inmates, but the people that work 19 underneath me, because I'm not -- you know, nothing is 20 underneath me, and I don't belittle their tasks. 21 And, you know, I think that that goes a great 22 distance with, you know, motivating individuals. 305 1 They're more apt to listen to me because, you know, I 2 have been there. I heard a couple of my officers, you 3 know, make reference to, you know, me being a CO, and 4 me putting that into my mindset when I'm making 5 decisions. And that's certainly important to me. 6 I am not just, you know, implementing, you 7 know, PREA standards on an administrative aspect. I 8 think you've got to look at it in a correction 9 officer's perspective, you've got to look at it in, you 10 know, your supervisor's perspective. Having worked 11 these positions, I am familiar with how a ripple 12 effect, so to speak, will affect the people underneath 13 me. 14 I, you know, have never been an inmate, so I 15 can't speak on their behalf. But I think you have to 16 try and put yourself in their shoes, so to speak. And 17 working in corrections, you do get an idea of how rough 18 it is for those particular individuals. 19 So I guess my answer, you know, to that would 20 be I think that I am doing okay in regards to keeping 21 my staff motivated. The issue that I had initially was 22 the low morale that I had with my predecessor leaving, 306 1 which I think was, you know, clear that most of my 2 staff weren't a big fan of his. And, you know, the 3 biggest task was getting them back to where they needed 4 to be. And, you know, I have certainly done that, in 5 my opinion. 6 And PREA is another topic that, you know, I am 7 just going to have to be dedicated to. And, from what 8 I have seen, what I am dedicated to my officers and my 9 staff are right behind me. 10 MS. CHUNN: I am sure they are awfully proud 11 of your having risen through the ranks to the top. 12 They speak of you in that manner. 13 What plans do you have, though, to better 14 prepare yourself to be a leader in this particular 15 area? 16 MR. TOLSON: Well -- 17 MS. CHUNN: I am talking about your 18 professional development plans, now. 19 MR. TOLSON: Sure. Well, education on this 20 matter is very important. I don't think anybody is 21 going to follow you, if you don't know what you're 22 talking about. 307 1 Like I said, I have done, you know, a fair bit 2 of research into PREA, but you're never done. There is 3 always new statistics or new books or new theories, you 4 know, that are out there that need to be gotten. So, 5 you know, education is obviously the most important 6 part. You know, in order for people to follow you, 7 you're going to have to be knowledgeable in a subject 8 to where they're going to learn from you, and trust 9 that you know what you're doing enough to lead them to 10 where they need to be. 11 You know, by implementing -- you know, change 12 through the facility would be an issue, as well. But I 13 guess, initially, education would be the most important 14 thing, to me, when it comes to PREA. 15 MS. CHUNN: Does -- 16 MR. TOLSON: And getting my people to, you 17 know, follow me in the future. 18 MS. CHUNN: Does that mean to take advantage 19 of national resources that may be available to you? 20 MR. TOLSON: National, state, local, whatever 21 is available. You know, it makes no never mind if 22 it's -- you know, whose resource it is, as long as it's 308 1 valuable. 2 You know, of course I have seen the NIC 3 information, which is, you know, very good stuff. Like 4 I had mentioned, Mr. Dennis from CCNO is a very 5 valuable resource to a lot of individuals. 6 And we have the Bureau of Adult Detention, 7 through our state level, that is starting to pay more 8 attention, hopefully, to this PREA information, and can 9 disseminate resources at their level, as well. Of 10 course, those are the individuals that do our annual 11 jail inspections, and they write the minimum jail 12 standards for the State of Ohio, which we follow. 13 I think it would be a great idea, speaking on 14 minimum jail standards, to have, you know, implemented 15 some of these PREA standards in that, because those are 16 our basic -- that's our bible, that's what we -- that's 17 the minimum of what we have to do, so that would be, 18 you know, a decent idea. 19 MS. CHUNN: Thank you. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Warden, is your facility 21 accredited, according to Ohio minimum jail standards? 22 MR. TOLSON: We are not accredited. We are 309 1 inspected annually by the Bureau of Adult Detention, 2 and successfully, 100 percent, every year we have 3 opened. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Is there an accreditation 5 status that you could obtain through the minimum jail 6 standards? 7 MR. TOLSON: Yes. We could be accredited by 8 the Bureau of Adult Detention. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: And what's keeping you, do you 10 think, from getting that? 11 MR. TOLSON: I guess a matter of -- I am 12 inspected by them every year. I have a certificate now 13 that says I'm 100 percent compliant with all of their 14 standards every year since it opened. 15 I could see some value in going out to an 16 agency like maybe the American Correctional 17 Association. ACA is a very respected agency around 18 prisons and jails. But, of course, there would be a 19 cost involved in that, which would be an issue. 20 But I guess what I am saying is the 100 21 percent jail inspection compliance is sufficient for 22 me, as far as the Bureau of Adult Detention 310 1 accreditation would go. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: So you're not currently 3 ACA-accredited, either? 4 MR. TOLSON: No, absolutely not. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: And was it your testimony that 6 the reason why some of your new recruits can go 7 months -- even up to a year -- as an employee without 8 getting their three-and-a-half week CO training is 9 because you can't afford to be paying them to be 10 spending that time with -- you know, you need the 11 bodies in your facility, is that right? 12 MR. TOLSON: Not only because of the money 13 issues, but you know, the safety issues. I can't, you 14 know have the individual being short. And then I'm 15 paying the overtime, obviously. But it's nice to have, 16 you know, the individuals on that shift, you know, 17 working. 18 Now, the new employees aren't just thrown, you 19 know, out to the wolves, and we just don't put them out 20 in a housing unit and say, you know, "Do a shake-down." 21 But we do OJT, on-the-job-training, for as long as it 22 takes. 311 1 The shift commanders, I give the 2 responsibility to assign that individual with, you 3 know, one of the officers that they feel are one of 4 their better officers on whatever post that they're 5 working on for that particular time. And when the 6 sergeants feel comfortable with that new employee, then 7 they, you know, post them and let them work that post. 8 But it's very rare that an individual would go 9 a year without having the COT training. And it's also 10 a matter of, you know, when that COT training is 11 available. We don't have our own academy. We have to 12 go through the Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy, and 13 those aren't, you know, put on every two months, three 14 months, because you have to be a certified corrections 15 officer to go through the training. And in order for 16 them to do a training seminar, you have to have a 17 certain amount of people in that class to go. So it's 18 a little different than what maybe the state does, as 19 far as their own academies. 20 But, just to add, on my little agenda that I 21 have for things to be changed is our own academy, 22 which, you know, Mr. Conrath was the individual that I 312 1 was sending to get, you know, certified to be -- I 2 don't know what they call it, but it's basically your 3 head OPOTA COT certification individual. And then I 4 was going to have some of my shift commanders instruct 5 some of the courses that are needed to go through it. 6 But that's something -- you know, obviously 7 it's down the road, something that would be beneficial 8 to me, obviously. I would have better-trained staff 9 through that process. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: OPOTA stands for what? 11 MR. TOLSON: Ohio Peace Officer Training 12 Academy. Sorry. 13 MS. ELLIS: Warden, what's your vision for 14 your facility? You've been there a year now. You've 15 come up through the ranks. What's your vision for that 16 institution? 17 MR. TOLSON: Well, it seems my first year, all 18 the visions that I had when I started have kind of been 19 put on the back burner. It always seems to be, with 20 me, about, you know, handling the -- 21 MS. ELLIS: The immediate and the up close? 22 MR. TOLSON: The immediate and the up close. 313 1 MS. ELLIS: But still -- 2 MR. TOLSON: But the vision that I would like 3 to have would be, you know, a facility that I don't 4 need to put my nose in all the time. I would like a 5 self-run facility, where I can sit back, put my hands 6 on my head and watch my people work. 7 I think that that's certainly where we're 8 getting -- not meaning I don't want to do any work; 9 meaning that I could take, you know, more time working 10 on my policies. And, you know, I want to see my people 11 get to a point to where I don't need to, you know, hold 12 their hands, as far as my philosophy goes a little bit. 13 And we've still got a fair bit of that going on. 14 But that's my immediate vision, would be, you 15 know, a -- I want my supervisors to be doing a better 16 job to, you know, have my line staff working the way 17 they're supposed to be working, and I don't need to, I 18 guess, ride them as hard as what I do. I'm 19 pretty -- I'm a pretty hard individual on some of my 20 staff. I get along with them okay, it's just that I 21 demand a lot of -- I demand a higher level than what 22 they're used to. How's that? 314 1 So, I guess the vision that I can think of 2 right now would be, if I had that, then I would have 3 the time and the ability to concentrate on, you know, 4 more pressing administrative issues. 5 MS. ELLIS: What do you see as your 6 responsibility in providing them with the tools that 7 they need to be more effective in their jobs? 8 MR. TOLSON: Well, I think I have a 9 responsibility to train. I think that I have a 10 responsibility to hire individuals that are, you know, 11 better employees. I have a responsibility to 12 discipline individuals that, you know, aren't meeting 13 the -- I guess aren't running par for the course. 14 I have -- those are the three, off the top of 15 my head, that I can think of, as far as -- I mean, if 16 you keep a consistent discipline on your employees, and 17 they know exactly what's expected of you, and 18 communication is always there, you're hiring decent 19 people to come inside your facility, and you've got 20 well-trained staff, you know, I think your facility is 21 going to run well. 22 MS. ELLIS: What training have you had, as a 315 1 manager? 2 MR. TOLSON: Me, as a manager? I have had, 3 you know, Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy, jail 4 administrators training. You know, I have had, you 5 know, several other courses in investigation throughout 6 my tenure, supervisor training throughout my tenure, 7 training in crisis intervention, suicide prevention. I 8 am corrections officer trained, that I passed 11 years 9 ago. 10 You know, I don't think that I am lacking the 11 ability to be a good supervisor to these individuals. 12 And if you looked at me on paper, I think that I would 13 meet the qualifications for the position, if that's 14 what you're asking. 15 MS. ELLIS: Just trying to get a sense of what 16 you're thinking, in terms of your role. Just trying to 17 get a sense of your staff, the type of environment that 18 exists there in your facility, ways in which, when you 19 leave this place and you go back to Ohio, a progress 20 will be made, individuals will be motivated, you will 21 be motivated, you will be enhanced by this experience, 22 and our willingness to share with you suggestions that 316 1 might make a difference. 2 MR. TOLSON: Well, I think that my attitude 3 towards this whole process -- you know, it's not easy 4 to sit up here and, you know, like you mentioned, that, 5 you know, some people aren't hearing this testimony, so 6 they don't realize that, you know, I did start in the 7 middle of 2007, and you know, maybe I did inherit a 8 little bit of this. 9 So, you know, I certainly realize that this is 10 a very embarrassing situation that I -- you know, I 11 don't want to sit here, you know, and answer to this 12 any more than any other person would. But I think the 13 fact that, you know, myself and the individuals that 14 went before me have had the courage to, one, not make 15 any excuses whatsoever, which -- you know, and I will 16 add that none of the testimony that they gave was 17 coached. 18 I spoke with Mr. McFarland prior to that. I 19 think one of the greatest virtues of my facility is the 20 honesty which you're going to get from my individual 21 people that sit up here. Although they may be a little 22 brash at times, I think that that's a good philosophy 317 1 to have. And, you know, that's a philosophy that I 2 carry with me. I am a very honest, down-to-earth 3 person, you know. 4 And this process has been very difficult for 5 us, you know, because we are taking responsibility for 6 other people's actions. And, in my opinion, I am not 7 shifting blame towards my predecessor, or towards any 8 of the other previous wardens, or trying not to do it 9 towards my board, you know. I feel that my policies 10 are not sufficient, and that, you know, I want to step 11 up to make this process better for you guys and us. 12 I was speaking to somebody regarding the draft 13 for the standards that was out for this. I did read 14 those. And I was saying that I really hope that this 15 process goes well, because you know, that's going to 16 affect us. And that draft is going to be very 17 difficult, as a jail administrator, to, you know, keep 18 in line. 19 So, I am hoping the information that you guys 20 get from, you know, not only us, but the other 21 facilities that you have talked to, you know, will help 22 put better standards out there, you know, that are more 318 1 in touch with what needs to be in that draft, or in 2 those standards. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Warden Tolson, is anything 4 preventing you from appointing a PREA coordinator 5 tomorrow? 6 MR. TOLSON: Yes. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: What? 8 MR. TOLSON: I want to make sure it's the 9 right person. I want to make sure it's the person that 10 is going to follow that policy that I am going 11 to -- that is in the process of being completed. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Well, you have known 13 for 90 days about this survey. And you have been on 14 the job for 13 months. How much longer does it take to 15 identify someone to be a PREA coordinator? 16 MR. TOLSON: Well, like I said, I am confident 17 in -- that the policy needs to be correct. I think 18 that we have a bad habit of -- in our facility, 19 obviously -- to put policies out there that 20 aren't -- that don't jive with what we do. 21 And I don't want to appoint myself as the PREA 22 coordinator, or Lieutenant Eddy as a PREA coordinator, 319 1 and then -- you know, without a policy set in place 2 that specifically states that, I don't think I'm fixing 3 anything. I think I'm doing the same thing that we 4 have done over the years. 5 There will be a PREA coordinator indicated, 6 but you know, I want it to follow along with the 7 policy. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay, and -- 9 MS. ELLIS: The policy is clear. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: You know, you've spoken highly 11 of Northwest -- CCNO. 12 MR. TOLSON: Yes, I have. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: What's to stop you from 14 adopting, at least on an interim basis, for purposes of 15 a job description for the PREA coordinator, Mr. Dennis' 16 policies and practices? 17 MR. TOLSON: His policies are great, I have no 18 doubt. But I can't -- you know, I can't enact a policy 19 that's his. I don't believe in recreating the wheel, 20 don't get me wrong, but it has to be our policy. It 21 has to be specific to us. It has to mean something to 22 us. I don't want to just, you know, throw something 320 1 out there. 2 I just don't see this as something that I want 3 to have done next week. It is something that takes 4 time. And I'm not trying to avoid the question, saying 5 that I am trying to be -- procrastinate on the issue, 6 not at all. But a policy being completed is not where 7 we're at at this time. 8 MS. ELLIS: Well, I am -- 9 MR. MCFARLAND: What's -- go ahead. 10 MS. ELLIS: I am concerned about this issue, 11 to this extent. Creating a policy is one thing. Being 12 well informed about a sexual assault, the trauma 13 associated with sexual assault, being well informed 14 about the fact that inmates have a right to be informed 15 about the dangers that may exist, to be informed about 16 the fact that you are concerned that they not become 17 victims of sexual assault, I think we could just go 18 make a very comprehensive list associated with what 19 PREA is all about, and what it opens up for inmates, 20 what it opens up for staff, and what it means across 21 the board. 22 It is not very difficult to begin to put some 321 1 of those things in place. I asked earlier about 2 whether or not there were any brochures, or any 3 postings. And this is the only thing that is available 4 to inmates. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: And it's not regularly handed 6 to them at intake, was the testimony. 7 MS. ELLIS: Your staff indicated that there 8 are golden opportunities to inform inmates about sexual 9 assault, and to address this issue. 10 And PREA has been around for a few years now. 11 It's not anything that's new, that's just coming 12 across, blazing across the sky. There are so many role 13 models, so many other institutions that have willingly 14 taken on PREA, and are very proud of what they have 15 done. 16 I am sensing somewhat of a reservation in your 17 willingness to get started. 18 MR. TOLSON: Oh, we have already started. 19 It's not a matter of that. I guess -- 20 MS. ELLIS: Well, talk about how you've 21 already started. 22 MR. TOLSON: -- what I'm trying to say is I'm 322 1 not -- 2 MS. ELLIS: Talk about it. 3 MR. TOLSON: I'm not trying to have a 4 reservation to start. I just want to make sure that, 5 when we do it, it's done right. That's what I am 6 trying to say. I don't -- 7 MS. ELLIS: What will it take? 8 MR. TOLSON: -- want to just throw out -- see, 9 I'm so used to, in the past 10 years, that a knee-jerk 10 reaction from my administrators isn't always the right 11 answer -- 12 MS. ELLIS: We're talking about on your watch 13 now. 14 MR. TOLSON: I am talking about my watch -- 15 MS. ELLIS: We're on your watch. 16 MR. TOLSON: -- absolutely. 17 MS. ELLIS: Not the last 10 years. That's 18 happened, and we all acknowledge how unfortunate that 19 was, and the overwhelming responsibility you have had, 20 in turning your staff around, and motivating your 21 staff. And it certainly sounds like you've done a 22 yeoman's job, to that extent. 323 1 What I am suggesting -- and I will join my 2 colleague in urging you to get started. 3 MR. TOLSON: I hear what you're saying. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Is there any reason why there 5 aren't PREA posters anywhere in your facility? 6 Anything that says in something larger than eight font, 7 you know, on a legal-sized paper, that says, "Sexual 8 victimization is a crime. If you want to report it, 9 here is the tip line." 10 MR. TOLSON: Other than the fact of what I 11 have been stating throughout this process, you know, if 12 I post stuff like that in my housing units at this 13 current time, I am going to have inmates asking 14 officers that aren't where they need to be, as far as 15 answering those questions. That's my point. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, but even directing them 17 to the tip line, it only goes to four individuals, you 18 being one of them. So why do you have to wait until 19 all the COs have gone to some NIC training in order to 20 even put up a poster that says jail rape is illegal? 21 MR. TOLSON: Well, the individuals that get 22 the calls from the hotline are individuals that are 324 1 close to me, and they're individuals that I will deal 2 with directly, and they understand my philosophy 100 3 percent on -- 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 5 MR. TOLSON: -- that we have a zero tolerance 6 for this -- 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Right. So they're already on 8 board. So why not at least -- 9 MR. TOLSON: If I post it back in a housing 10 unit, then I have to deal with every single officer 11 being on that same page with what these individuals 12 are, and I don't feel that that's there yet. Not 13 saying that I am hesitant to do it. Like I've said, I 14 am very forthcoming, saying that I know that there is 15 problems there, and I am very eager to fix these 16 problems. 17 And, you know, we have started fixing some of 18 these problems. But I think just disseminating a bunch 19 of information isn't the issue. I think that you have 20 to be committed, you know, to not only policies, but 21 the education for the inmates, for programming changes, 22 for a lot of different areas. If I just start throwing 325 1 things out there, I'm just doing whatever it does to 2 make you happy, and that's not what I'm trying to do. 3 I'm not trying to make you happy, I'm trying to, you 4 know, be committed to the PREA process, as so many of 5 my other jail administrator colleagues are. 6 I could very easily just post this stuff, you 7 know, back in these housing units. You guys wouldn't 8 have asked any questions about it. I could have -- you 9 know, I could do this stuff all day long, but it's 10 not -- in my opinion, I don't feel that I would be 11 fixing the problem, if I'm just throwing patches over 12 top of leaks, you know, in the wall. 13 MS. CHUNN: Warden Tolson, I appreciate and 14 respect your right to decide what your priorities are. 15 MR. TOLSON: Yes. 16 MS. CHUNN: We offer this with the noblest 17 intent. 18 MR. TOLSON: Sure. 19 MS. CHUNN: Certainly, if you could go back to 20 the day before the completed suicide, you certainly 21 would. And in a manner, what happens with sexual 22 assault is also a problem. 326 1 I think I said earlier to another panel, "I 2 see sexual assault and victimization as a safety and 3 security issue." Certainly it's a moral issue, too. 4 But if you're running a facility, it's a safety and 5 security issue, too. 6 One of the things that concerns me -- and this 7 is an indirect question to you -- you served 5,156 8 whites and 207 -- 239 African Americans, eight 9 Hispanic, five Asians, five American Indians, Alaska 10 Natives. Yet, your entire workforce is white. Is that 11 a priority for you, to look at some diversity, or what 12 steps are you going to take to try to address the 13 notion that you are not serving an all-white 14 population? Though it is predominantly white, it is 15 not all white. Do you have any interest in doing that? 16 And the implications for sexual assault and 17 victimization have to do with the comfort level of 18 people who may be non-white, in being able to express 19 something about what may or may not have happened to 20 them. 21 I know that was long, but did anybody follow 22 it? You got it? 327 1 MR. TOLSON: I think I got it. 2 MS. CHUNN: Okay. 3 MR. TOLSON: You know, I don't have any 4 specific goal. My goal is to, you know, hire the best 5 individual available for the position. If that happens 6 to be African American or a Hispanic individual, that's 7 great. I have no problems with that. 8 I, however, don't associate race with being 9 the issue, as far as at my facility. I guess I haven't 10 put too much thought, as far as that goes. I mean, we 11 have had African American individuals that have worked 12 there in the past. So I guess I don't -- it just 13 happens to be that, you know, we have predominantly 14 white people around our general area, and they are 15 available for the hiring. I would not be opposed, 16 whatsoever, to that process. And if it helped, then 17 that would be, you know, obviously a big bonus. 18 MS. CHUNN: Do I hear you saying, then, that 19 since you do serve non-white people as well -- 20 MR. TOLSON: Sure. 21 MS. CHUNN: -- and if there were people who 22 applied, you could see the benefit, perhaps, through 328 1 the eyes of the detainee, of having somebody -- 2 MR. TOLSON: I could see the -- I see what 3 you're saying. But, you know, I -- 4 MS. CHUNN: I'm not asking you to go out and 5 recruit, I'm just -- 6 MR. TOLSON: No, no, I'm just out of -- you 7 know, just my philosophy, I -- you know, whether it's a 8 benefit to the offender or not, I feel that the best 9 person for the job is the person that gets hired. And 10 if that individual happens to be African American, then 11 so be it. If that guy gets on board, I put the best 12 staff that I can out there, I guess with little regard 13 to, you know, any specific benefit that I am going to 14 get because of race, so to speak. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Warden, who are the inmates 16 who are most vulnerable to sexual assault in your 17 facility? What's the profile? 18 MR. TOLSON: Well, I think you're looking at 19 weak people, like -- 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Physically weak? 21 MR. TOLSON: I would say physically weak, but 22 not only physically weak, but -- I mean, I think you 329 1 can be weak in your stature, a low self-esteem. 2 Basically, people that would struggle to take care of 3 themselves if an altercation or something would come 4 out, or could stand up for themselves if somebody, I 5 guess, pushed them verbally. 6 I think mental health individuals are targeted 7 because of their mental health issues. As my officer 8 say, the mentally handicapped people. We don't get a 9 ton of mentally handicapped, but those people are all 10 -- they're easier, I guess, for a predator to prey on. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, do you get a lot of 12 mentally ill individuals? 13 MR. TOLSON: We get a lot of mental health 14 cases in our facility, more than what we should. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Then -- I think that some of 16 your staff thought there was a significant proportion 17 of your inmates -- 18 MR. TOLSON: Well, I guess I would be speaking 19 on different experiences than what they speak on. They 20 work in a small facility. I have walked through many 21 facilities that they haven't. I don't feel that we 22 have a bigger issue than what other facilities would 330 1 have. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 3 MR. TOLSON: I think it's universal, across 4 the state and country, that mental health is becoming, 5 you know, a huge issue inside of correctional 6 facilities. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, I wasn't saying -- 8 MS. CHUNN: Yes. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: -- is it more than other 10 places, I'm just saying is it -- 11 MR. TOLSON: No. Yes, we don't -- we're not 12 below the standard, I can tell you. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. Well, what's your 14 estimate of the percentage of mentally ill inmates in 15 your facility on a given day? 16 MR. TOLSON: I guess it would range in the 17 severity of the mental illness. But, you know, I 18 am -- I -- 19 MR. MCFARLAND: A diagnosed mental illness, 20 whether it is, you know, they're on psychotropic drugs, 21 or -- 22 MR. TOLSON: Between 25 and 35 percent. 331 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 2 MR. TOLSON: I would say easily would match 3 being diagnosed bipolar, or you know, something of that 4 nature, anti-social, something of that nature, and have 5 a -- 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. I interrupted 7 your -- the profile that you were describing. What 8 else? 9 MR. TOLSON: I think the biggest thing that I 10 have seen, in my experience, as a person that would be 11 susceptible to this type of stuff would be a lack of 12 experience and jails, or prison politics, because that 13 does exist. 14 I think these individuals walk into a system 15 and they're afraid of what's in store for them. And 16 this is where your predators come and take advantage of 17 it. It could be for safety, it could be for, you know, 18 commissary, it could be for drugs, it could be for a 19 lot of things. 20 But I think these individuals that don't have 21 a lot of experience inside of a correctional facility, 22 matched up with -- you know, in housing units with guys 332 1 with, you know, vast experience, a few numbers under 2 their belt, show them the ropes, so to speak, and I 3 think that's where your inmate-on-inmate stuff comes 4 from. That would be the type of individual, as far as 5 a victim. 6 Obviously, it would be the opposite for a 7 predator. You're going to have, you know, very 8 ego-strong individuals, power hungry, a lot of 9 experience inside of a correctional facility, 10 probably -- 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Physically bigger? 12 MR. TOLSON: Physically bigger, but not only 13 physically. I think it's very important to say that 14 the character of a person -- you can kind of tell if 15 somebody is shy, introverted, extroverted -- I think a 16 very, you know, outgoing, strong-willed individuals 17 would be your predator type. 18 But I think the experience goes hand-in-hand, 19 because once you've been in prison, you understand -- 20 MR. MCFARLAND: What about sexual orientation? 21 Is that relevant? 22 MR. TOLSON: I don't think it is. I don't 333 1 think whether you're gay or not depicts whether you're 2 going to get abused or not, because, you know, it's my 3 opinion that a predator doesn't -- I wouldn't consider 4 him, you know, homosexual because they have a sexual 5 assault against somebody inside of a prison. 6 I just think it's an act, but not necessarily 7 that makes them a homosexual. It certainly would be a 8 homosexual act, but I don't think it makes the 9 individual a homosexual. When they got outside the 10 facility, I doubt very seriously that would be, you 11 know, how they are. It's just all they have to work 12 with, I guess. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Are you saying that sometimes 14 a homosexual sexual assault is an act of dominance and 15 violence -- 16 MR. TOLSON: Yes. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: -- that has nothing to do 18 with -- 19 MR. TOLSON: Absolutely, yes. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: -- sexual orientation? 21 MR. TOLSON: Yes. I think that that would be 22 accurate. I mean, a lot of it is about power, it's 334 1 about the alpha male, it's about, you know, 2 establishing your dominance, letting people know that, 3 you know, this is "your housing unit," or this, 4 is -- you know, "This is my area." 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Or maybe you've been the punk 6 all the time, and now there is somebody you can 7 dominate. 8 MR. TOLSON: Sure. And I'm speaking in 9 regards of inmate to inmate, obviously, but it could be 10 the same way for staff, I guess, too. 11 I don't have a lot of experience dealing with, 12 you know, investigations, as far as sexual assault go. 13 I mean, obviously, we have had experiences at our 14 facility that we have discussed earlier. I was at the 15 facility when they happened, but I have never been in 16 the situation to investigate them. 17 Just from, you know my tenure in corrections 18 and, you know, walking through facilities, talking to 19 other individuals that deal with this stuff on a daily 20 basis, that's the perspective that I would have. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, from your experience, 22 what are the tell-tale signs, the warnings, that one of 335 1 your staff is more susceptible to being compromised, 2 sexually, by an inmate? 3 MR. TOLSON: Well, the personality of a 4 person. You can get a lot from a person by reading how 5 they are. Obviously, an extroverted person is, in my 6 opinion, more susceptible, because they are, I guess, 7 more gullible. I see them as more gullible, more apt 8 to talk to people more than somebody that would be shy, 9 so to speak. And if you're a big talker, the inmates 10 will take advantage of that, try to spin it around on 11 you a bit. 12 As far as a staff member being victimized, I 13 see that that - The number one thing that I have 14 noticed from my experience is that the individual is 15 usually taken advantage of. The inmates usually, I 16 guess, suck them into their realm, so to speak. They 17 will have them doing little things, and then the next 18 thing you know, they've got them into, you know, 19 situations of a sexual nature. 20 Most of the relationships, in my experience, 21 that I have noticed between staff and inmates have been 22 female staff members and male inmates. Of course, 336 1 we're predominantly male inmates, so that would be the 2 case. But it's usually that type of situation. It's 3 usually, you know, a female that likes to, you know, 4 talk, that's kind of gullible, that the inmates will 5 talk to and tell them that they're pretty. And, you 6 know, the next thing you know, they're caught up in a 7 relationship, and it costs them their job. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: And have you worked -- in your 9 10 years have you worked in any other institution than 10 this one? 11 MR. TOLSON: No, Sir. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: So -- 13 MR. TOLSON: My father worked in the state 14 correctional facility for 30 years. I grew up in this 15 business. When I was a kid I used to go to the prison 16 all the time and play basketball against the inmates. 17 You know, I have been around this world for the past 30 18 years, so -- 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. How often have you run 20 across a situation where -- that you've just described 21 at this facility, where a staff member has been lured 22 into a compromising situation with an inmate? 337 1 MR. TOLSON: I can think of two or three, off 2 the top of my head, one that I dealt with specifically 3 in 2007. I heard some of the individuals talk about 4 that incident. There was no sexual act. Lieutenant 5 Eddy was talking about the letters that we had caught, 6 and the phone number that was in the individual's 7 housing unit. And I did terminate that individual. He 8 had informed you that I -- that she was allowed to 9 resign. She was terminated. 10 That was the beginning of 2007, somewhere 11 around that area. That was a -- 12 MR. MCFARLAND: So you terminated her as 13 deputy warden, then? 14 MR. TOLSON: No, I was the warden at that 15 time. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: In January of 2007? 17 MR. TOLSON: Well, in the -- it was towards 18 the middle, somewhere around the beginning to the 19 middle of 2007, so I would have been acting warden 20 prior to -- 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh, okay. 22 MR. TOLSON: I'm sorry. 338 1 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. When did you 2 become acting warden? 3 MR. TOLSON: Mr. Gillespie was on 4 administrative leave from January to May, or April, 5 around that ballpark. So I was acting warden from 6 January to whenever he resigned. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: When was the pre-survey 8 discussion that BJS had with Mr. Gillespie? 9 MR. TOLSON: I believe it was in December. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh, really? 11 MR. TOLSON: December to January of 2006. Of 12 course, I say acting warden by default. I was the 13 deputy warden. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 15 MR. TOLSON: He wasn't there, he was placed on 16 leave. So I guess at that point all you're doing is, 17 you know, going through the motions, making sure 18 everything is working out okay until they worked out 19 their issues with him. But yes, I did terminate the 20 individual. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. The most vulnerable 22 areas in your facility? 339 1 MR. TOLSON: We had this discussion. I -- you 2 know, I think -- 3 MR. MCFARLAND: But not on the record, right? 4 MR. TOLSON: Not on the record, but -- 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 6 MR. TOLSON: -- I think bathrooms are big 7 areas, because you can't put cameras in bathrooms. If 8 you can, then it's -- you would have to be very 9 strategic about it. Shower areas, just because of 10 the -- I think the nature of the officers not wanting 11 to be around, you know, that type of -- you know, 12 nudity, and the whole nine yards. It's a little 13 uncomfortable, so they're more apt to get away with 14 things in that particular area. 15 The kitchen in our facility, I think, is 16 under-surveyed. And you have cross-gender supervision, 17 which, you know, in my opinion, is always an 18 eye-opener. Not necessarily that things always happen, 19 but when you have, you know, male and -- or female 20 employees around male inmates in our kitchen with, you 21 know, unsurveyed closets, such as our dry storage, or 22 our walk-in refrigerator or bathroom, there are some 340 1 areas down there that could be better. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Indeed, that's not 3 theoretical, right? You had one of the cooks who was 4 having sex with multiple inmates in the restroom in the 5 kitchen, is that correct? 6 MR. TOLSON: That is correct. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: And what year was that? 8 MR. TOLSON: 1999, to the best of my 9 knowledge. I'm fairly certain it's 1999. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 11 MR. TOLSON: But yes, that was -- you know, 12 that was an incident that occurred in that kitchen. I 13 guess I have answered that question. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: What would you do differently 15 about the booking and intake process, in light of what 16 you have heard? 17 MR. TOLSON: Well, I have heard some very good 18 suggestions, sitting back here. I -- 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Like what? 20 MR. TOLSON: Well, I liked the fact that -- I 21 think it would be a good idea to ask if the individuals 22 have ever been sexually abused. I could use that for 341 1 my own records, my own statistics, not only in our 2 facility, but others, as well. 3 I would like to, you know, maybe incorporate 4 some PREA stuff into our intake. You know, it's like a 5 quick, you know, informative-type brief statement 6 regarding zero tolerance towards it. I think that that 7 is a bonus that I have gotten out of this meeting. 8 The -- I was a little on the fence on 9 the -- since I don't feel that it is a -- that it's the 10 number one trigger, the homosexual question that you 11 made reference to being on the intake form, you know, 12 is interesting. I would like to maybe look into that 13 with some other facilities. But -- 14 MS. ELLIS: Good. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: It's not currently on your 16 intake form? 17 MR. TOLSON: No, it's not, but I -- 18 MS. ELLIS: But good. 19 MR. TOLSON: I get where you're -- 20 MS. ELLIS: Explore it. 21 MR. TOLSON: I get where you're trying to, you 22 know, get the information, so to speak. It can be 342 1 helpful. 2 Identify individuals that would probably be 3 susceptible, just based off of their gestures. Just 4 because a person acts feminine, doesn't mean that they 5 are homosexual, per se, but -- 6 MR. MCFARLAND: No, but the predator may think 7 so. 8 MR. TOLSON: But if you have an individual 9 that is back in a housing unit that ties their shirt 10 around like a tube top, I think you're going to have 11 some issues. But, you know, I think that that could be 12 important. 13 I have gotten that solely out of this hearing, 14 which I thought to be, you know, beneficial. There are 15 probably some other -- 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, what would you -- 17 MR. TOLSON: -- things there. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: What would you do differently 19 about reporting? 20 MR. TOLSON: About -- 21 MR. MCFARLAND: How an inmate can report an 22 allegation. What do you think about the 343 1 duplicate -- giving a copy of The grievance or 2 The -- back to the inmate? 3 MR. TOLSON: Well, initially, I agree that on 4 that crime tip line we probably need to mention sexual 5 assault, per se. Even though, you know, obviously 6 we're here for the sexual assault, I think, you know, 7 sexual assault is just as important as any other 8 criminal act that occurs in there. Of course, a crime 9 is a crime, and it needs reported, and we need to deal 10 with it. 11 I think that allowing them to know that that 12 hotline can be utilized specifically for that, that it 13 is -- you know, we shouldn't be afraid to let them know 14 that it is passworded off, you know, that very few 15 individuals do have access to that information, I'm not 16 opposed to posting information that, you know, if they 17 don't feel welcome talking to any staff members, that 18 they have the right to, you know, request to talk to 19 individuals from the public. 20 I have no problems with any of these inmates 21 talking with their own pastors, political figures, it 22 wouldn't matter to me. My goal is not to conceal, my 344 1 job is to fix it. I think if I am giving them every 2 avenue possible, and if that includes calling the 3 Athens Messenger to report it in the local news, if 4 that's -- that doesn't matter to me, either. I am not 5 ashamed of what we're going to do to fix this problem. 6 I think -- 7 MR. MCFARLAND: That might wake up your 8 corrections commission. 9 MS. ELLIS: Exactly. 10 MR. TOLSON: Well, that's what woke, you know, 11 us up, was as soon as the survey came out, I was 12 talking to the media. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 14 MR. TOLSON: That's where The embarrassment 15 part came in. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: What would you do differently 17 about investigations? You mentioned training. 18 MR. TOLSON: Yes, I think Mr. Conrath 19 is -- came a long way since he started. The 20 investigations that I do have from him currently are 21 impeccable. He does very good work. That's why I 22 placed him in that position, is that I knew that I 345 1 would get that out of him. 2 He is, you know, a little green. He's got 3 some things to learn. And, you know, I have helped him 4 along the way, as far as that goes. But I am not the 5 foremost expert on investigations. 6 We do have training set up for him. I think 7 that The -- 8 MR. MCFARLAND: And when will that be, Sir? 9 MR. TOLSON: We went over this once. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Did we? 11 MR. TOLSON: Yes. It was -- he's got it 12 already scheduled for -- 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, I know. I never heard a 14 when. 15 MR. TOLSON: October, November, and December, 16 I believe, of -- 17 MS. CHUNN: -- December. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay, I'm sorry. All right. 19 MR. TOLSON: He does have three scheduled. He 20 is going to have much more training, trust me. 21 I -- you know, obviously, a well-trained 22 person is going to give you results, and you know, I'm 346 1 going to lean on him to give me unbiased 2 investigations, which is the purpose for his position. 3 And I think that I will get that out of him. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: And how long do your video 5 cameras archive, or tape? How long do you keep the 6 archives? 7 MR. TOLSON: The majority of them, 30 days. 8 We do have, you know, the ability on one of our digital 9 DVRs to go a little longer, because of the hard drive 10 being significantly larger, a terabyte. But that -- I 11 mean, we have 30 days, at least. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: And where is your next camera 13 going to go, if you had one? 14 MR. TOLSON: I have so many spots, I can't 15 pick one that is more relevant than the other. 16 Lieutenant Eddy has been hounding me to get cameras 17 inside the housing units of A through -- 18 MR. MCFARLAND: F? 19 MR. TOLSON: -- F. I think that that would 20 probably be the most -- initially, it would be the most 21 rewarding for us, to have those shining down, at least 22 inside the housing units. 347 1 I think we would be able to pick up on a 2 little bit more, I guess, of the inmates' attitude, or 3 you know, a swing in their demeanor. Because I think 4 that that's -- I mean, if you have officers that pay 5 more attention to the demeanor of an inmate, I 6 think -- you know, one minute they're happy and the 7 next minute they're pissed off -- I think that tells a 8 lot. 9 And if you can start identifying those, and 10 start questioning on those, I think, you know maybe 11 some of these incidents can be handled without the 12 inmate even coming forward. We can start identifying 13 situations, you know, right off the bat. But the 14 cameras, probably the housing units. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: When lights are out, are the 16 cell units -- are they locked in? 17 MR. TOLSON: Yes. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And what's the gender 19 breakdown of your inmates, generally? 20 MR. TOLSON: Twenty-four females, max, and the 21 rest are male. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay, okay. And what's the 348 1 breakdown of those who are pre-sentenced detainees, 2 versus convicts? 3 MR. TOLSON: Female or -- 4 MR. MCFARLAND: No, no. 5 MR. TOLSON: Just all together? 6 MR. MCFARLAND: All together. 7 MR. TOLSON: Well, like I said, I would say it 8 runs about 50/50. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And that includes 10 parole violators? 11 MR. TOLSON: We -- yes. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Would be included in the -- 13 MR. TOLSON: I would consider them as, like, a 14 pre-trial type individual. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. 16 MR. TOLSON: Although they have the 17 experience, because they're on paper, but they're going 18 through the initial phase, just like anybody else. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: The last thing I had, Warden, 20 is just the sensitive topic of salaries, because some 21 of the job descriptions you provided had salaries and 22 some of them didn't. 349 1 MR. TOLSON: Okay. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: And it would be helpful for us 3 to know, for example, the sergeants. What's the hourly 4 rate for the sergeants? 5 MR. TOLSON: Well, we just completed -- well, 6 actually, we haven't completed, we're in the process of 7 union negotiations, so that's subject to change. It's 8 kind of on hold. They make $13-something an hour. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And the officer in 10 charge? 11 MR. TOLSON: They're at $12-something an hour. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: And I think you mentioned that 13 the starting CO starts at $11.56, or something? 14 MR. TOLSON: I think it's $11.14. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: $11.14? 16 MS. ELLIS: $11.14? 17 MR. TOLSON: Yes, Sir. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 19 MR. TOLSON: And we just completed their union 20 negotiation, so that's why that's fresh in my head. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 22 MS. ELLIS: Warden Tolson, at one point -- I 350 1 think it was the testimony of the third, maybe the 2 second or third panel -- you raised your hand, and I 3 tried to say to you that you will have your 4 opportunity. 5 MR. TOLSON: I have no idea what that was 6 about. 7 MS. ELLIS: I was curious, and just wonder, 8 did you get an opportunity to say what was of 9 concern -- 10 MR. TOLSON: I probably did. 11 MS. ELLIS: Okay. 12 MR. TOLSON: I wrote down some notes as I was 13 sitting back there. I wanted to elaborate on the 2007 14 incident. I know I did write that down. 15 Somebody had mentioned it, and I wanted to 16 make sure that you were aware that there has been some 17 talk of some of these incidents that have happened in 18 the past being allowed to resign, and that's not my 19 philosophy, and I wanted that known. 20 The one individual that I did deal with on 21 that was terminated. She was not very happy, but we 22 had video footage of her exchanging mail between the 351 1 inmate, and I think it was enough that she had her cell 2 phone number inside the inmate's housing unit in 3 another prison, so that individual was terminated. She 4 was on her probationary period. 5 You know, I don't know why I raised my hand. 6 I did it so many times. Every question you asked them, 7 I wanted to answer. Like I said, I am -- you know, I 8 hope that we have, you know, exhibited that we are 9 committed to the process, you know, embarrassed that 10 our numbers were like this, surprised that our numbers 11 were like this. 12 Although, you know, our policies were 13 deficient, you know, I still felt that we had that 14 philosophy. And we are a small jail. I feel that if 15 they were occurring at the pace at which this survey 16 indicated that we were, we would have more knowledge, 17 you know, as to what was going on. And that certainly 18 wasn't the case. 19 That's why I felt it so important to get that 20 crime tip line out there, to give them that avenue, you 21 know, to at least report something. We have gotten, 22 you know, some stuff off of it, but it has nothing to 352 1 do with sexual assault. 2 MS. ELLIS: Warden, I want to just go back to 3 Commander Easterling's very emotional testimony this 4 morning, and her reaction to the suicide that occurred 5 in your institution. 6 Clearly, your entire staff was impacted. 7 These are very distressing, disconcerting events that 8 happen. And being in proximity to those events 9 certainly can cause a trauma to individuals. 10 And I asked about your peer support. And I 11 would ask again about what's in place for your folks 12 who, day after day, go in and face a really grim job, 13 in the eyes of so many, in dealing with violators to 14 the law, dealing with criminal acts that occur there, 15 in the institution, having concerns for their safety? 16 So, I would ask what's in place for your 17 folks, in terms of taking care of yourselves? 18 MR. TOLSON: Not much. It's a very stressful 19 job. 20 MS. ELLIS: Yes. 21 MR. TOLSON: Most certainly I -- you know, 22 having done the job, I understand, you know, where 353 1 these guys are coming from. 2 As was said after the incident -- you know, I 3 was on vacation, so actually Lieutenant Eddy handled 4 most of it very well, in my opinion. Of course, I was 5 in, you know, constant communication via the phone with 6 him. But, you know, counseling was provided, not only 7 for the -- well, not provided, counseling was mandatory 8 for everybody that was initially involved in that 9 incident, not only the staff, but the inmates, too. 10 So, I think we have had some pretty serious, 11 you know, incidents happen at our facility since I have 12 taken over, and I have demonstrated to these 13 individuals that -- not only that I care, usually 14 making a personal phone call or sitting down with the 15 individual on a one-on-one basis and, you know, 16 reiterating to them that the job that they did was 17 right, the job that they did needs to keep -- you know, 18 keep coming every day that you come to work, but 19 letting them know that the work that they do is 20 appreciated. 21 It goes a long way. You would be surprised at 22 how fast the employees' morale gets back up when they 354 1 know they're appreciated. 2 And I think that, you know, my -- I guess my 3 ability to, you know, take the time to do these 4 change-outs or walk-throughs with them, or sit down and 5 book inmates with them, or just sit down and talk to 6 them while they're on their post has been the greatest 7 thing for me, as opposed to the question that you're 8 asking. I feel it keeps their stress level down a 9 little bit when their administrator is right there with 10 them, and explaining to them that they're appreciated. 11 But then again, on the other hand, not all of 12 my employees are perfect, too. You know, you have to 13 discipline, too. And I think that when you do 14 discipline, it makes some of the employees a little 15 more satisfied, that they know that it's consistently 16 ran, that, you know, people aren't going to get away 17 with everything. I certainly wouldn't want to come to 18 a job where everything is running amok, people do 19 whatever they want. 20 I like to have some structure. I think 21 everybody likes to have some structure. I don't think 22 we're there. I think we're going to be there. I'm 355 1 confident that we're going to be there in the future, 2 but I just -- I want to make sure that I'm putting the 3 right pieces of the puzzle together, and just not 4 throwing them out there all over the place. 5 So, myself would be probably the greatest 6 resource that I have, as far as the employees' morale. 7 I think that if I'm talking to them I give them a 8 good -- I think that I would be a good resource to help 9 them in a, you know, difficult situation, such as that 10 suicide. 11 But the counselors help. The mere fact that 12 we're a close facility, everybody knows everybody -- in 13 perspective to Becky, I know she probably got about, 14 you know, 200 phone calls after that incident, with 15 people trying to, you know, help her out, or you know, 16 "Do you need this, do you need that." That type of 17 stuff helps. 18 MS. ELLIS: Thank you. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Warden, I have a suggestion, a 20 request, and a closing comment. 21 MR. TOLSON: Okay. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: The suggestion is don't let 356 1 the perfect keep you from the good. Don't wait for the 2 perfect policy. 3 MR. TOLSON: No. No, Sir. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: The -- I'm sure that the 5 suicide -- you're not going to wait for the perfect 6 suicide policy. I'm sure there were things that you 7 did the next morning -- 8 MR. TOLSON: I'm not saying perfect. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, yes. 10 MR. TOLSON: I just feel "appropriate" is, I 11 believe, the word that I was using. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 13 MR. TOLSON: But I just -- I want it to be 14 ours, and not somebody else's, so -- 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, you've got one of the 16 best in the same state, Jim Dennis' outfit. 17 MR. TOLSON: Oh, absolutely, I agree. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: And the survey bears that out. 19 MR. TOLSON: I -- 20 MR. MCFARLAND: So borrow some of that stuff. 21 MR. TOLSON: I agree with you. I'm going to. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: He shows that inmate 357 1 orientation film twice a day, every day. These folks 2 can -- have memorized what the sexual assault policy 3 is. Just a suggestion. 4 And I wanted to thank you and your staff for 5 coming all this way out here, for the time, for your 6 candor. You have a great staff. 7 MR. TOLSON: Thank you. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: You have a -- and they have a 9 warden, as I mentioned, who has internalized the need 10 for change, has articulated it, has made it 11 unequivocally clear. And, as you've said, it starts at 12 the top. So I really affirm you for what you're going 13 to do, and going to do soon. 14 And if there is -- would you mind -- my one 15 request is, would you just let us know what changes you 16 do make? 17 MS. ELLIS: Oh, that would be -- 18 MR. TOLSON: I would be more than happy to 19 send you a copy of everything that I do. 20 MS. ELLIS: Yes. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: That would be great. 22 MR. TOLSON: No problem. 358 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Because that just makes our 2 day. 3 MS. ELLIS: Exactly. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: This is not our day jobs. And 5 to see some change would -- as a result of this 6 process, is greatly encouraging to us, and something we 7 can forward on to other jails. 8 MR. TOLSON: So, in other words, I'm on a time 9 table, then? 10 MR. MCFARLAND: No, no. You're not on a time 11 table. Just let us know. And if there is anything 12 that we can do to help with your corrections 13 commission -- 14 MS. ELLIS: Absolutely. 15 MR. TOLSON: I appreciate the support. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: -- to resurrect them from a 17 bit of apathy, we would be happy to help -- 18 MS. ELLIS: Sure. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: -- in any way we could. 20 MR. TOLSON: Well, I was a little, I guess, 21 surprised that I had people from the -- you know, they 22 were sitting over in the chairs that I didn't even know 359 1 who they were coming up and, you know, trying to give 2 me support. So I applaud you guys for your process, 3 and we're honored to take part in it. 4 And, you know, like I said, we were here to 5 help. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. Well, thank you. 7 This hearing is adjourned. 8 (Whereupon, at 3:57 p.m., the hearing was 9 adjourned.) 10 * * * * * 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22