155 1 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HEARING ON RAPE AND STAFF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT IN 2 UNITED STATES JAILS 3 BREVARD COUNTY JAIL COMPLEX 4 VOLUME II 5 Page 155 - Page 330 6 -------------------------------------------------------- 7 HEARING: Held pursuant to the Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003 8 9 HEARING DATE: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 Afternoon Session 10 HEARING TIME: 1:30 p.m. - 4:55 p.m. 11 12 HEARING VENUE: Florida A&M University College of Law 13 201 Beggs Avene Orlando, Florida 32801 14 INTRODUCTION: STEVE MCFARLAND, Director, 15 Task Force for Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, 16 U.S. Department of Justice 17 OPENING COMMENTS: CARROLL ANN ELLIS, Director, 18 Fairfax County, Virginia, Police Department Victim 19 Services 20 WELCOMING REMARKS: DEAN MARKITA COOPER 21 Florida A & M University College of Law 22 23 REPORTED BY: Elida T. Hager, R.P.R. Notary Public 24 State of Florida at Large 25 156 1 INDEX 2 PAGE Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3 Morning Session VOLUME I 4 Introduction by Mr. McFarland.................... 03 5 Opening Remarks by Ms. Ellis..................... 04 6 Welcoming Comments by Dean Cooper................ 05 7 Examination Under Oath: 8 Lt. James Dodson, Jr........................ 07 9 Maj. Darrell Hibbs.......................... 07 10 Afternoon Session VOLUME II 11 Examination Under Oath: 12 Rev. Russell Williams....................... 157 13 Continued Examination Under Oath: 14 Maj. Darrell Hibbs.......................... 164 15 Examination Under Oath: 16 Lt. Gregory Robertson....................... 166 17 Lt. Ronald Tomblin, Jr...................... 166 Cpl. Roy Foster............................. 166 18 Examination Under Oath: 19 Orville Clayton............................. 247 20 Christopher Bourque......................... 247 21 Cmdr. Susan M. Jeter........................ 298 22 Continued Examination Under Oath: 23 Maj. Darrell Hibbs.......................... 298 24 Court Reporter's Certificate..................... 230 25 * * * 157 1 (Transcript continued from Volume I.) 2 PROCEEDINGS 3 MR. MCFARLAND: The next witness will be 4 Russell Williams, former chaplain at the jail 5 complex. 6 Is it Reverend Williams? 7 REV. WILLIAMS: Yes. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Reverend Williams, 9 would you please stand and raise your right hand, 10 please. 11 (Whereupon, REVEREND RUSSELL WILLIAMS, having 12 been duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and 13 nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as 14 follows:) 15 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. Thank you. 16 Would you please state your name and title for 17 the record, please? 18 REV. WILLIAMS: My name is Russell Paul 19 Williams. I'm regional director for Good News Jail 20 and Prison Ministry. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And when have you 22 worked at Brevard County Jail complex? 23 REV. WILLIAMS: I was the chaplain there from 24 February 2002 to July -- June -- July of 2007. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: Were you there when the BJS 158 1 conducted their National Inmate Survey? 2 REV. WILLIAMS: I believe I was, but I 3 don't -- wasn't involved in that process. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. Okay. As chaplain 5 during your five -- five years? 6 REV. WILLIAMS: Approximately. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: How many times did you ever 8 have an inmate come to you and allege some kind of 9 sexual assault, unwanted touching, anything -- 10 anything of that nature? 11 REV. WILLIAMS: Zero. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. What's your -- how many 13 times did an inmate ever -- or a staff member, for 14 that matter -- ever pass on to you that there was 15 some romantic or sexual relationship or activity 16 going on between a staff and an inmate? 17 REV. WILLIAMS: Zero. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. What's your 19 understanding of what you would've done or would've 20 had to do had you heard such information? 21 REV. WILLIAMS: Had I heard such information 22 from an inmate or a staff person, it would've been 23 my obligation to document it and pass it on to jail 24 security staff as something that would affect 25 safety and security within the facility. 159 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Are you a sworn officer? 2 REV. WILLIAMS: No, I'm not. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And you weren't when 4 you were at Brevard? 5 REV. WILLIAMS: No, sir. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 7 MS. ELLIS: You did say that you were not 8 familiar with the BJS report? 9 REV. WILLIAMS: No, ma'am, I was not. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Have you heard anything since? 11 REV. WILLIAMS: I went online last night and 12 checked it out, yeah. 13 MS. ELLIS: You took a look at -- 14 REV. WILLIAMS: I took a look at the -- at the 15 commission and what you're about and the 16 legislation. 17 MS. ELLIS: And also the report, as far as -- 18 REV. WILLIAMS: Scanned it. It was 19 40-something pages. And I did not look at it in 20 detail. I looked at the charge. 21 MS. ELLIS: Understand. Understand. My 22 question would be, in view of the fact that in your 23 experience you've not heard or known of any sexual 24 assaults -- 25 REV. WILLIAMS: Correct. 160 1 MS. ELLIS: -- there in the institution, what 2 do you make of a report that says that -- that 3 there are some -- 4 REV. WILLIAMS: I -- 5 MS. ELLIS: -- events going on? 6 REV. WILLIAMS: I'm not naive. I know it 7 takes place. I was surprised by the numbers. 8 MS. ELLIS: Okay. So it is your sense that it 9 does commonly take place in institutions? 10 REV. WILLIAMS: Just as a regional director of 11 Good News, working with 15 chaplains, we're aware 12 that this takes place. 13 But as far as our active involvement, as 14 chaplains in Brevard County, particularly where I 15 worked, I didn't -- didn't deal with it. I didn't 16 have a lot of inmates making complaints or 17 allegations to me. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: How do you think a jail, or 19 Brevard County Jail in particular, could be a safer 20 place, could be made safer from sexual assault; do 21 you have any ideas? 22 REV. WILLIAMS: I think the greatest thing I 23 can do, as a provider of religious services 24 chaplain, counseling, is just to be aware of the 25 issue, and when it does come up, to be faithful to 161 1 report it and accurately document it. 2 As far as prevention, I don't know how you 3 could prevent it. I mean, two, three men behind a 4 closed door, without a camera in the room, what can 5 you do, so -- other than making inmates aware that 6 the jail is concerned and that the jail wants to 7 know when these things happen, having that type of 8 climate, hopefully, where an inmate would report 9 these kind of things going on and just 10 communicating the fact that there is care and 11 concern about what happens there. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Were you ever given any 13 training about what to do in the event that one of 14 your clients, you know, one of the prisoners or a 15 staff shared that sexual assault was going on? 16 REV. WILLIAMS: The organization I'm a part 17 of, Good News Jail and Prison Ministry, has 18 chaplain training for all our chaplains and -- 19 MR. MCFARLAND: I'm talking about when you 20 were at Brevard. 21 REV. WILLIAMS: Specifically, I was given 22 security briefings. We had annual security 23 briefings, but no, not specific training about 24 reporting or dealing with the sexual battery or 25 assault, no. 162 1 MR. MCFARLAND: And these security briefings 2 didn't have anything to do with what to do in the 3 event of an allegation of sexual assault. 4 REV. WILLIAMS: No, typically no. 5 They would deal with matters that related to 6 chaplain volunteers -- 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 8 REV. WILLIAMS: -- and what their function 9 were and then an annual general -- there's general 10 overview of security regulations and guidelines for 11 any volunteer coming in and out of the jail. 12 It was, basically, an annual reminder of the 13 do's and don'ts. We did those annually. I don't 14 recall having any specific topic addressed. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: And have you received any 16 training about the effect of sexual abuse or 17 assault on inmates' behavior? 18 REV. WILLIAMS: By the jail or by -- 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. Well, start with, at 20 Brevard County Jail, did you ever get any such 21 training? 22 REV. WILLIAMS: No. 23 MR. MCFARLAND: Have you gotten it anywhere 24 else? 25 REV. WILLIAMS: My organization, Good News, 163 1 provides that for our chaplains. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you think that's important? 3 REV. WILLIAMS: Absolutely. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Why is that? 5 REV. WILLIAMS: Well, I mean, in knowing how 6 to deal with somebody in a moment of crisis and 7 knowing how to counsel them, sensitivity to what's 8 going on with them, I mean, and because it is a -- 9 it happens. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. Does your organization 11 give any training on whether a victim of sexual 12 abuse or assault, as a child or as an adult, makes 13 someone more or less vulnerable to sexual assault? 14 REV. WILLIAMS: I believe it's touched on in 15 our chaplain's resource kit, which is our training 16 manual. But it doesn't go into great detail. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Well, thank you for -- 18 MS. ELLIS: One more question, Chaplain. 19 I'm just curious. Are you amazed at the 20 amount of staff-on-inmate sexual assault that 21 occurs in institutions? 22 REV. WILLIAMS: I don't know what the numbers 23 are. Yes, I'm -- I'm -- I haven't observed it or 24 witnessed it at Brevard County Jail. And when I 25 looked at this report, it was surprising, the 164 1 numbers. 2 I would hate to think anybody, any of the 3 other corrections or facilities or jails or prisons 4 would have to be subject to that, whether it's 5 staff or other inmates. 6 MS. ELLIS: Do you interact with staff or did 7 you interact with staff in any manner? 8 REV. WILLIAMS: Sure, every day. I mean, that 9 was part of any chaplaincy is to -- is to be a 10 chaplain to be -- as well as the inmate. 11 MS. ELLIS: -- to -- umbrage (sic) to the 12 staff as well? 13 REV. WILLIAMS: Sure. 14 MS. ELLIS: Okay. Thank you. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Thank you very much, 16 Rev. Williams. 17 REV. WILLIAMS: Thank you. 18 (Whereupon, MAJ. DARRELL HIBBS, having been 19 previously sworn was recalled for further examination 20 and testified as follows:) 21 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. Maj. Hibbs, you 22 handed me, during the break, a couple of incident 23 reports. And I just want to identify them for the 24 record. 25 MAJ. HIBBS: Yes, sir. 165 1 MR. MCFARLAND: One is 07-004291 involving an 2 attempted suicide on November 22nd, and the other 3 is 07-004339, also about an attempted suicide, also 4 in the A pod on the same date; however, the first 5 of those being approved by Brian Seeley, the second 6 one being by Ricky Blush; is that right? 7 MAJ. HIBBS: Yes, that's correct. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: These are documents from the 9 jail's records? 10 MAJ. HIBBS: Yes, these are documents from the 11 jail's records; that's correct. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: These both pertain to the 13 attempted suicide of the alleged victim that we 14 were talking about this morning; is that right? 15 MAJ. HIBBS: Yeah, that's correct. 16 Ms. Simmons, I believe. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Beyond these two 18 documents, do you have any personal knowledge of 19 what was done or not done in reaction to this 20 victim's attempted suicide? 21 MAJ. HIBBS: No, I don't. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So you don't know if 23 mental health staff spoke to her and what she 24 might've said about any alleged sexual assault or 25 any other motives for trying to kill herself. 166 1 MAJ. HIBBS: That's correct. I have no 2 knowledge. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Thank you very much, 4 Major. I think you'll be back up later this 5 evening. 6 Next is -- next witness will be Lieutenants 7 Gregory Robinson and Ronald Tomblin, as well as 8 Corporal Roy Foster if they would come forward, 9 please. 10 Gentlemen, if you'd please stand and raise 11 your right hand. 12 (Whereupon, LT. GREGORY ROBERTSON, LT. RONALD 13 TOMBLIN, JR., AND CPL. ROY FOSTER, having been duly 14 sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but 15 the truth, were examined and testified as follows:) 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Thank you. 17 Lt. Tomblin, could you just tell us what you 18 do at the Brevard County Jail? 19 LT. TOMBLIN: I am the evening's B squad Squad 20 Commander. I oversee and supervise approximately 21 65 officers and cover approximately 1900 inmates. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And 1900 inmates is the 23 entire capacity of the jail right now, isn't it? 24 LT. TOMBLIN: Yes, sir. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So, in the evening 167 1 shift you are -- the buck stops with you, is that 2 what -- or -- or no? 3 LT. TOMBLIN: We do have a watch commander 4 major on. She works during our hours, not our 5 complete time, but part of that, she's on. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And, of course, Cmdr. 7 Jeter would be accessible at any time to -- as well 8 as, for that matter, Maj. Hibbs, is that right? 9 LT. TOMBLIN: Yes, sir. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Is that how the chain of 11 command works? 12 LT. TOMBLIN: Yes, sir. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Lt. Robertson. 14 LT. ROBERTSON: Yes, sir. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: What's your job there, sir? 16 LT. ROBERTSON: Same thing. Lieutenant, day 17 shift, supervise approximately same number, 65 18 officers. But I'm more at the main jail, not 19 including the tents and the annex, because they 20 both have supervision at each of those. But there 21 are times I supervise the entire compound. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Who is the day shift 23 commander at the annex over the women's facility? 24 LT. ROBERTSON: That's Lt. Canada. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And who is your 168 1 counterpart in the tents during the day? 2 LT. ROBERTSON: Lt. Beville (Phonetic.) 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Beville? 4 LT. ROBERTSON: Beville. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And when is the -- from 6 what hour to what hour is the day shift? 7 LT. ROBERTSON: We work from 6:00 to 6:30. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: 6:00 a.m. to 6:30 p.m? 9 LT. ROBERTSON: Right. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: And I assume, then, that there 11 now three shifts, right, so the -- so Lt. Tomblin 12 -- Tomblin takes over after 6:30; is that right? 13 LT. ROBERTSON: Yes, sir. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Now, you don't work 15 seven days a week, Gentlemen; is that right? 16 LT. ROBERTSON: No, sir. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: It may seem like it sometimes? 18 Who else has your role on the days that you 19 have off? 20 LT. TOMBLIN: Lt. Pellasee has my role on 21 night shift, and Lt. Dodson has Lt. Robertson's 22 role on the day shift. 23 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Cpl. Foster. 24 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: Good afternoon. 169 1 What is your role at the jail? 2 CPL. FOSTER: I'm the immediate supervisor, 3 classification. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 5 CPL. FOSTER: And, basically, we have eight 6 civilians and one certified officer in there, not 7 counting myself. 8 We do all the classification of inmates. We 9 review the grievances. We keep track of incident 10 reports and the site forms of the facilities and 11 bible study approval list; pretty much, a lot of 12 paperwork gets funneled through there. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So you see all the 14 grievances? 15 CPL. FOSTER: Yes. In the unit, yes, we see 16 all the grievances. Personally, I do not, sir. 17 But the classification unit does, yes, sir. We 18 assign them to the supervisors. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: I see. So how does -- could 20 you just describe the grievance process? 21 CPL. FOSTER: What else -- if a inmate has a 22 complaint, they'll go to the officer. If they 23 can't be dealt on that level, what happens 24 is officer get -- will supply them the grievance. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: Is that a written form? 170 1 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. I -- that I provided, 2 yes, sir. That's it. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. For the record, 4 I'm handing out -- I'm holding a document that in 5 the lower left corner says BCJ-004, Revised 6 February 14, '08. And it's entitled Inmate 7 Grievance; is that -- 8 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: And it has a carbon on the 10 second page? 11 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So an inmate with a 13 grievance has to get this from an officer; is that 14 right? 15 CPL. FOSTER: Yeah. They'll receive it from 16 the officer. What happens is, the inmate will put 17 his complaint on there. The officer will sign it, 18 the inmate will retain his copy, which would be the 19 yellow copy. The other copy gets forwarded to us 20 to be assigned to a supervisor. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: I see. And what's -- what 22 does the inmate need to tell the officer in order 23 to get that inmate grievance? 24 CPL. FOSTER: Usually, they say they'll give 25 them the courtesy, if they can handle them. Like I 171 1 said, the inmate says, "Well, I want a part -- be 2 put on the haircut list," if the officer can 3 handle, well, then they'll go ahead and do it. 4 But if it's something that they can't handle, 5 if he has a complaint about the meal or something 6 like that, they'll have to put on the grievance and 7 they'll have to be funneled to the right 8 supervisor. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: So the officer in charge of 10 that, that cell block, who is approached by an 11 inmate for one of these forms, his or her duty is 12 to see if it can be handled without filling out the 13 grievance form; is that? 14 CPL. FOSTER: Well, like I said, if it's just 15 a basic request, like I said, if the guy wants to 16 be on the haircut list, 'cause, like I said, some 17 of, I don't know if they know the difference 18 between a request or a grievance -- 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 20 CPL. FOSTER: -- like I said; but if it's 21 something they can handle, the officer wants to 22 handle it right then and there. 23 MR. MCFARLAND: Is going to request and the 24 inmate with then, it's -- 25 CPL. FOSTER: Yeah. Yes, sir. 172 1 MR. MCFARLAND: So if an inmate wants to 2 grieve having been approached by an inmate or a 3 staff member for sex, he's not going to get a 4 grievance form unless he either lies about why he 5 wants the form or tells them the truth; is that 6 right? 7 CPL. FOSTER: Like I said, if he's -- I'm 8 assuming that I'm -- like I say -- like I said, if 9 they wanted that, I assume they come through the 10 mail. 11 Like I said, if they -- if they -- I have a 12 grievance that came through the mail, they can 13 submit a request form, you know what I'm saying, 14 just because it's not on a grievance form does not 15 mean that we're not going to look at it. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Is there a separate form? 17 Lt. Robertson looks like he wanted to -- 18 LT. ROBERTSON: Yeah. We don't deny any 19 inmate any form. Whether they want to give us the 20 information or not, we hand them out liberally. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Does the -- as the 22 shift commanders if -- if a correctional -- one of 23 your correctional officers seems to be getting a 24 lot of grievances, is that -- have any 25 repercussions; you get concerned about that? 173 1 LT. ROBERTSON: Yeah. We -- they all go to 2 us, the shift commanders, what's -- what's about 3 our shift. We review those, and we answer those. 4 A lot of times they're minor things, not 5 important things, or they need this or they need 6 that. And we investigate and give them whatever 7 they want or do whatever's necessary. 8 But, oftentimes, if you see a lot on a 9 particular officer, you'll look into it a little 10 deeper to find out is there anything behind this, 11 is there more to it. But that's just a normal -- a 12 normal operation of our position, to review those. 13 I mean, we know -- I can tell what my officers 14 are doing based on some of these things. 15 A lot of times if they want to remove 16 a officer, if they want to get him out of there 17 'cause he's -- he enforces the rules. You know, 18 they'll write a lot of grievances on him. You can 19 see it. We learn a lot of information from the 20 grievances, outside of what they're looking for. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: I didn't understand that last 22 part. 23 LT. ROBERTSON: We learn a lot from the 24 grievance process outside of what they're just 25 asking for. It gives us an indication of what's 174 1 going on in the housing units. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So is it your testimony 3 that there is no penalty or disincentive for a 4 correctional officer to hand out a grievance form 5 or be grieved, you know, to get a grievance? 6 LT. ROBERTSON: No. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So, no, that's -- 8 that's correct? 9 LT. ROBERTSON: Correct. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. By the way, how long 11 have you been, Lt. Robertson, at Brevard? 12 LT. ROBERTSON: Approximately 20 years. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: And Lt. Tompkin (sic)? 14 LT. TOMBLIN: Eleven years. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: And Corporal? 16 CPL. FOSTER: Nineteen, sir. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. 18 MS. ELLIS: So the inmates, then, have a clear 19 path to being able to get their grievances across 20 and out. 21 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, ma'am. 22 LT. ROBERTSON: Yes. 23 MS. ELLIS: Even if the grievance may be 24 against somebody in the chain of command or the 25 person collecting the forms, they would not feel 175 1 intimidated or afraid to use that process, and 2 they'd be able to move forth with it; is that what 3 we're hearing? 4 LT. TOMBLIN: That's correct. 5 CPL. FOSTER: That's correct. 6 LT. ROBERTSON: That's correct. And they can 7 always go to the next shift, also. If they feel a 8 concern here, they can -- grievance to the next 9 shift to the -- that -- pertaining to that shift. 10 So, you know, they have all sorts of avenues to get 11 those passed forward. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: So what happens after the -- I 13 think I interrupted you on the process. 14 After they've asked for this form, if they've 15 -- the officer may have inquired, "Well what do you 16 want it for, maybe I can take care of it, well, 17 it's more than the haircut line. All right. Well, 18 then, here's the form," they fill it out, then what 19 happens? 20 CPL. FOSTER: Okay. What they'll do is 21 they'll get the form. We assign it to the 22 appropriate officer. We enter it into the computer 23 system. They have approximately five days -- five 24 working days to get it back to us, and then we'll 25 forward it back to the inmate. 176 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Now, by "they" you mean the -- 2 CPL. FOSTER: The supervisor we assign it to. 3 Yes, sir. 'Cause there is a tracking number on 4 them. We write them on there. It's not -- yes, 5 sir, it's not on that. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So -- 7 CPL. FOSTER: Yeah. Every grievance is 8 entered in the computer system. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Great. Is there any occasion 10 for deleting it from the -- 11 CPL. FOSTER: No. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So they're never 13 cleared? 14 CPL. FOSTER: No. No, sir. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Now, if a -- then after 16 the officer who -- the supervising officer who was 17 assigned it, after they get back to you in five 18 days, what happens? 19 CPL. FOSTER: What happens is, like I said, 20 we'll enter it in the system, return -- we'll 21 forward the copy back to the inmate and we'll file 22 the original away in a file. 23 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Now, a number of the 24 inmates with whom I spoke yesterday said that they 25 frequently file those claims and they never hear 177 1 anything. Are they lying or does that sound like a 2 possibility? 3 CPL. FOSTER: No. Like I said, if it comes 4 to us, we're going to file in a number and, like I 5 said, we're going to forward it to their 6 supervisor, and then he'll get -- it'll get sent 7 back to them. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So in your -- is it 19 9 years? 10 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: -- at that facility, you've 12 never seen a grievance that wasn't responded to, 13 maybe not timely, but it was always responded to 14 within a few days after it -- 15 CPL. FOSTER: Yeah. If we get a grievance, it 16 is going to get entered in the system and assigned 17 to a supervisor to be answered. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: And have you ever seen a 19 situation where the supervisor just didn't get 20 around to responding to -- back to you? 21 CPL. FOSTER: Maybe if the inmate went all the 22 way before it could be answered; if they can go 23 back and question the inmate, we'll put "All The 24 Way" on that form. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: "All the way," meaning what? 178 1 CPL. FOSTER: Like I say, a typical -- like I 2 said, a typical -- like I said, a inmate put a 3 grievance in, and then the next day he went home 4 before we -- somebody could talk to him. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh, he'd get away. I see. 6 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. I'm sorry about that. 7 No, no. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, would there be any other 9 reason why a grievance didn't get back to you from 10 the supervisor? 11 CPL. FOSTER: No. Like I said, it gets 12 forwarded to us and, like I said, we'll put it 13 (sic) immediately between the officer and the 14 inmates. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So, if inmates -- 16 that's hypothetically speaking -- said -- if they 17 filled out an inmate grievance and they didn't get 18 it back, isn't -- then I guess there's the 19 possibility that the grievance never got turned in 20 to your office? 21 CPL. FOSTER: If, like, I guess maybe it was 22 put in the wrong box or something like that, it 23 could be a possibility. 24 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 25 CPL. FOSTER: But all -- we hesitate, 'cause 179 1 the inmate would have their copy, and like I said, 2 we've said them before, "Please just let us get a 3 copy of it, and we'll go ahead and follow-up for 4 you." 5 MR. MCFARLAND: That's kind of the reason for 6 having the -- 7 CPL. FOSTER: Yes. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: -- the officer sign the 9 grievance in the first place. 10 CPL. FOSTER: Yeah; and the inmate getting 11 them back. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: So the inmate has a copy with 13 the signature showing, "Yeah, I turned it in, and 14 here is the date." 15 CPL. FOSTER: Correct, sir. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So things really 17 shouldn't get lost in the system. 18 CPL. FOSTER: No, sir, like I said. 19 LT. ROBERTSON: And there's no purpose for 20 that to be lost because, like I said, they can 21 show -- can show proof that they've had it. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. All right. 23 MS. ELLIS: Is there a way for the inmate to 24 go directly to the sheriff with a grievance? 25 CPL. FOSTER: Well, like I say, I've seen them 180 1 through the mail before, I've gotten them through 2 the mail; so, yes, ma'am, they could, if they 3 wanted to, just forward it through the mail. 4 MS. ELLIS: Do you keep any kind of 5 statistical information on types of complaints that 6 come in so that you could go back and look and see, 7 we have so many because they didn't like a haircut 8 or their soup was cold or there was sexual assault 9 involved? 10 Do you know how many sexual assault grievances 11 have been filed? 12 CPL. FOSTER: The only ones that -- like I 13 said, I think we forwarded you 25, August 2007. 14 And the other ones will be categorized as, you 15 know, maybe in hygiene or kitchen or something like 16 that. But there are -- there is a category put on 17 them. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Gentlemen, we just 19 handed you Incident Report 07-004762. Date of 20 incident was 12/28 of last year. 21 The inmate told Officer Holt that he was 22 forced to perform oral sex on another inmate at 23 2:00 in the morning. Do any of you have personal 24 knowledge of this incident? 25 LT. ROBERTSON: It's -- it's labeled or the 181 1 report was approved by Sgt. Lough; you see that 2 near the top? 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, sir. 4 LT. ROBERTSON: I believe that happened with 5 Lt. Pellasee's shift on the evening. It reflects 6 that in the report. Another shift Lt. Pellasee was 7 in the bubble shakedowns; coming from Page 1 to 8 Page 2, the first word on Page 2 is his name. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. So have any of you seen 10 this report before? 11 LT. ROBERTSON: I have not. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Lt. Tomblin? 13 LT. TOMBLIN: No. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Cpl. Foster? 15 CPL. FOSTER: I probably -- I have -- like I 16 said, I print them out. Because I know I printed 17 out the case report. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 19 CPL. FOSTER: But I'm -- like I said, I don't 20 remember reading it. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. And I notice your name 22 on the top of the SVU, Cpl. Maggy's (Phonetic) 23 investigation. 24 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: So that just means that you -- 182 1 on June 24 you were printing out all these things 2 to provide to our Panel, right? 3 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, ma'am. 4 Yes, sir. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. 6 LT. ROBERTSON: Let me change that. I may've 7 seen it in passing. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 9 LT. ROBERTSON: But, no, I'm not familiar with 10 it. 'Cause we review all the reports day and 11 night. We see them. But I don't -- I don't recall 12 them. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Could this happen in the 14 bubble, the alleged incident? 15 Take your time. Just reading that first two 16 pages. Yeah. "The victim in the bubble on a 17 15-minute watch with the alleged assailant." 18 LT. ROBERTSON: Yeah. What -- the 19 arrangements of that cell block prior to the 20 opening of the 500 mental and medical facility, 21 those bubbles in there is where we house the same 22 inmates I think you saw on the tour yesterday. 23 They house those inmates in there. 24 Now, within that confines we have what was 25 called a 15-minute watch officer sitting right 183 1 there, probably less than 10 feet away. And we 2 have what was called a direct-watch officer 3 sitting, also, right there, watching the direct 4 watches less than 10 feet away, equally. 5 So we had two officers, plus the pod officers 6 themselves inside that pod, being monitored by a 7 control-room officer. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Now, at that time there wasn't 9 anybody triple-bunked in the exterior of that 10 bubble, right? They'd have to be behind the bubble 11 in this cell block, right? 12 LT. ROBERTSON: We had no inmates at that time 13 behind the doors within those bubbles, no. 14 Is that what you were asking? 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, I understood that before 16 the tents were opened and you added 500 new beds 17 that before the women were transferred over to the 18 annex, I understood that you were really crowded, 19 and you had triple-bunking in the dayrooms in some 20 of the cell blocks. 21 LT. ROBERTSON: Correct. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Was any of that triple-bunking 23 or double-bunking going on in the observation area 24 of the block that's referred to here? 25 LT. ROBERTSON: Negative. 184 1 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. So there's 2 nobody -- there's nobody and nothing in 3 between direct -- 4 LT. ROBERTSON: -- nothing to obstruct the 5 officer's view. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: -- direct-observation officer 7 and the folks that are behind the glass in the 8 bubble? 9 LT. ROBERTSON: Correct. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So, is it your 11 testimony, Lt. Robertson, that this really could 12 not have happened, the -- 13 LT. ROBERTSON: I would say it's extremely 14 unlikely that this event occurred. You know, not 15 being there, not with -- witnessing it myself, you 16 can never say 100 percent. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Sure. 18 LT. ROBERTSON: It would be extremely 19 unlikely, with an officer sitting that close to not 20 notice what was going on inside that bubble. And 21 also we have intercom systems within those bubble 22 to call for help too. 23 MR. MCFARLAND: At any time, would you have 24 less than the two officers in that bubble area? 25 LT. ROBERTSON: If we did, it was extremely 185 1 rare. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Lt. Tomblin, this occurred at 3 2:00 in the morning, so I'm assuming that that is 4 during your shift; is that right? 5 LT. TOMBLIN: During this time frame, it was 6 on A Nights, so I would've been off this evening or 7 that evening. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. So it's -- 9 LT. TOMBLIN: It would -- it would -- it's in 10 the time frame that I would be working on a normal 11 night, though. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Was that -- would that be 13 Sgt. Lough? 14 LT. TOMBLIN: Sgt. Lough, he is -- he was on A 15 Nights at that time on the opposite shift of me. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: So it would've been on his 17 watch then? 18 LT. TOMBLIN: Yes. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And how many officers 20 would you typically have at 2:00 in the morning 21 on this -- you know, at -- in late December of last 22 year -- 23 LT. TOMBLIN: Working that -- 24 MR. MCFARLAND: -- in that bubble area? 25 LT. TOMBLIN: Working that pod or just in that 186 1 bubble area? 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Just in that bubble area. 3 LT. TOMBLIN: You would have two. You would 4 have a 15-minute watch officer and your 5 direct-watch officer, plus, just like 6 Lt. Robertson said, you'd have your rovers that 7 would periodically be going in and out of there as 8 well. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. And how many 10 bubble cells do you have in that facility? 11 LT. TOMBLIN: Six. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So you had -- you've 13 got two officers to watch six -- 14 LT. TOMBLIN: Yes, sir. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: -- bubbles. And, actually, 16 the 15-minute watch officer, does he or she ever 17 move from the 15- from just looking at the 18 15-minute watch cell or cells? 19 LT. TOMBLIN: He would -- 20 MR. MCFARLAND: I gather that the idea of 21 15 minutes, is that once every 15 minutes is 22 enough; you don't have to have continuous 23 observation watching somebody sleep at 2:00 in the 24 morning continuously; is that right? 25 LT. TOMBLIN: Well, the way they're facing and 187 1 sitting, they would be looking at the bubbles. 2 Now, I can't say for sure that he might be writing 3 something -- 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Sure. 5 LT. TOMBLIN: -- glance away for a moment, or 6 something like that, or be speaking to another 7 officer who may walk in or the direct-watch 8 officer; so I can't say how long it might be. It 9 might be for a few seconds, but it is directly in 10 front of them. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you think, Lt. Tomblin, 12 that it's possible that this act occurred on the 13 15-minute watch bubble at this time in December? 14 LT. TOMBLIN: At this time? I would have to 15 agree with Lt. Robertson, it would be extremely 16 difficult for this to happen. 17 MS. ELLIS: Oh, boy. I have some -- some 18 questions about some of these reports that we have. 19 Are we going to work with these at this point? 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Gentlemen, I'm handing you 21 Incident Report 07-002138, an incident allegedly 22 occurring in the C Pod of CP on June 10th of '07. 23 Take your time, and just review it, and tell 24 me if you had any involvement in this. 25 LT. ROBERTSON: It appears Lt. Schneider was 188 1 dealing with this case. But let me read it real 2 quickly. 3 MS. ELLIS: Yeah. 4 Lt. Tomblin, have you had a chance to review 5 it? 6 LT. TOMBLIN: Yes, sir. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Cpl. Foster, maybe you could 8 get his copy and start looking at it. 9 Do you have a recollection, Lt. Tomblin, of 10 anything to do with this incident? 11 LT. TOMBLIN: No, I did not deal with this 12 incident. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Lt. Robertson? 14 LT. ROBERTSON: No, I did not deal with this 15 one either. Like I said, you'd have -- it looked 16 like Lt. Schneider was dealing with it. He made 17 contact and notified Lt. Marion (Phonetic), I 18 believe. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. If this did happen 20 on your watch and you -- that -- you know, you got 21 a report that -- from one of your people -- that 22 this had happened, what would you've done, 23 Lt. Robertson? 24 LT. ROBERTSON: I think you have some of 25 reports up there, and most of them reflect that we 189 1 initiate PREA. And usually that's reflected within 2 my report, the initiate the PREA protocol. 3 Crime scene is secured, witnesses are 4 separated, the victim's sent to medical, mental 5 health is requested. If he needs to go to outside 6 for medical, that's determined by medical. 7 Reports are done. One of my dual certified 8 officers would be activated to collect evidence and 9 get testimony. And my job is to work with my 10 sergeants to oversee these activities are taking 11 place. 12 And, in general, for myself, to assure that I 13 follow that, I do have the way that these things -- 14 just as I do on the ways to scenes with suicide or 15 any other thing, or attempts, I do have -- I -- I 16 phone ahead and have them pull a copy out of DMS, 17 the policy and procedures, so I can assure that I 18 do not miss a step within it. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: What's the DMS, sir? 20 LT. ROBERTSON: That's our computer system 21 that holds our policies and procedures so we have 22 access to them. That's my own practice that I do 23 so I assure that I don't miss a step along the way. 24 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you -- looking at what was 25 done in this case by these officers, is there 190 1 anything you would've done differently or do you 2 think they got it right? 3 LT. ROBERTSON: A quick scan, it sounds like 4 they did exactly what I said. 5 Is that the way you read it? 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Doesn't matter how I read it. 7 Lt. Tomblin, does this -- is there anything 8 you would've wanted your people to do differently 9 here? 10 LT. TOMBLIN: No. I think the PREA protocol 11 was followed the way we set it out to be. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Does it make any difference 13 that the victim, according to the SVU investigator, 14 Smith, is "Openly Gay"? 15 What -- would you expect that to be reported 16 or mentioned in a report of this kind? 17 LT. ROBERTSON: Generally, we're not going to 18 mention it in our report. A lot of times we're not 19 unaware at the time that we're gathering this 20 information. 21 Our job's to get -- get the scene secured, 22 collect the evidence, get the people in place, get 23 them the medical attention they need, get them the 24 mental health treatment they need. It's not my 25 concern what I'm dealing with, gay, not gay, 191 1 bisexual. It's irrelevant at this point. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Lt. Tomblin. 3 LT. TOMBLIN: When we're -- like Lt. 4 Robertson's saying, when we're dealing with these 5 situations, whether gay or bisexual, it doesn't 6 matter; it's going to be investigated and handled 7 appropriately, follow procedures. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: So if you got this report, 9 would -- and I realize this was written by the SVU 10 deputy, not one of your people -- would you 11 question why that was even included in the report? 12 LT. TOMBLIN: This was written by an agent 13 that works on the road? 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 15 LT. TOMBLIN: Why it's relevant to him putting 16 it in his report, I can't speculate on that. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Robertson. 18 LT. ROBERTSON: And generally we won't see 19 those reports. 20 LT. TOMBLIN: Yeah. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. But if it showed up in 22 one of the incident reports from one of your 23 officers, what would you do? 24 LT. ROBERTSON: I may ask, "How did you 25 determine that," you know. 192 1 But it's irrelevant to put it in, if they 2 determine it or the inmate made that statement. 3 It's a fact that needs to be known for future 4 investigation. All we do is collect facts. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. Why -- why -- there are 6 lots of facts about somebody, why -- why would 7 their sexual preference, if it's something that is 8 not ordinarily asked at admission -- why would that 9 be relevant; why would you want that in the report? 10 LT. ROBERTSON: Because they offered it, and 11 it could be something that would be useful to 12 whoever's going to investigate the report. 13 We try not to exclude anything that the 14 inmates are offering up. We give them what we have 15 and let the deputies investigate it the way they 16 see they need to. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: I notice that on the first 18 page Officer Hauck (Phonetic) states that a -- upon 19 removing the alleged perpetrator's mattress they 20 did, in fact, find a plastic shank, sharpened, 21 under the -- under his mattress. 22 If you were to be given this report, and 23 corroborating evidence like that was found, and 24 there's an allegation that that was used to -- 25 and -- and I see that in the preceding couple of 193 1 sentences that there was a small laceration on the 2 victim's right forearm which, evidently, was 3 visible and corroborated and photographed -- would 4 that -- what would you do with that information? 5 You've got confirming medical information, and 6 you've got -- you've got the -- the -- an 7 instrument, you know, you've got the weapon, so to 8 speak, and at some point -- it doesn't say who told 9 them -- but it just -- he -- that somebody thinks 10 that this guy is "Openly Gay," so it's not 11 mentioned in your officer's report. It's mentioned 12 by the SVU's report. 13 But that -- given that information, was -- 14 would you expect this just to be cleared like it 15 was? I mean, does -- 16 LT. ROBERTSON: Well, first of all, let's go 17 back to the shank or the weapon you termed. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 19 LT. ROBERTSON: The first thing is that 20 would've been collected, possibly, as evidence and 21 kept in that hold until the deputy took over the 22 case that we assigned. 23 All that evidence would -- that's to be turned 24 over to him, plus the crime scene should be secured 25 for him to go in and conduct the rest of his 194 1 investigation. That answers that issue. 2 Whether or not that particular weapon was used 3 to his arm, that's going to be investigated and 4 determined. And those -- those things are going to 5 be used to determine the elements of the crime. 6 If the crime happened, if it met the elements 7 of whether it can be prosecuted, again, that's 8 outside my scope. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Sure. 10 LT. ROBERTSON: But all of that would be 11 evidence collected to be used. I can't speculate 12 as to what he had to look at or didn't have to look 13 at. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: So you're saying that maybe -- 15 maybe somebody didn't know that the shank had been 16 found; is that what you're saying? 17 LT. ROBERTSON: I would highly doubt that. 18 I'm sure that was turned over as evidence. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 20 LT. ROBERTSON: But I don't have everything in 21 front of me to work with. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: No. I -- Yeah, I realize 23 that. I'm trying to understand why -- 24 LT. ROBERTSON: The only reason why I would -- 25 MR. MCFARLAND: -- how it actually works at 195 1 the jail. And I'm -- I guess, Lieutenant, I 2 realize that this particular incident you weren't 3 confronted with, neither of you were. 4 But I'm just wondering how -- what it would 5 take to -- in the way of evidence -- to have one of 6 these incidents get seen by a -- somebody outside 7 the sheriff's office. 8 And I'm saying, in this case, we have an 9 injured -- you know, a visible injury, we've not 10 corroborating evidence of the weapon, we've got, 11 possibly, the evidence of this person's sexual 12 orientation, whatever relevance that has to this 13 investigation, and yet it was exceptionally cleared 14 and referred to file. 15 Do you have any idea why -- any of the three 16 of you -- what more there had to be here to get 17 this to have a prosecutor look at it? 18 LT. ROBERTSON: Without having the evidence or 19 without have the witness statements or anything in 20 front of me and not -- and being dual sworn, I 21 can't answer that. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Are witness statements 23 typically tape-recorded or written or what? 24 LT. ROBERTSON: Again, those are done by 25 agents, outside agents, and so forth. And we're 196 1 not present for those events. Our goal is to 2 secure the crime scene and not tamper with the 3 evidence, so it can all be collected and used. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: I noted also on 2138 that the 5 victim or alleged victim had already signed an 6 intent to prosecute, and then Agent Smith talks to 7 him, and suddenly he's convinced to drop it. 8 Do you -- once somebody has signed an intent 9 to prosecute, is it appropriate for any of your 10 staff to second-guess that and ask them if it's 11 really, really what they want to do and "Don't you 12 want to think about this again" or -- I don't 13 understand why that wasn't kind of the end of the 14 investigation or the statement of the victim. 15 You know, he's given his statement, he's 16 pointed out correctly that -- where it happened and 17 the instrument of it, you know, the weapon, and he 18 said, "I'm willing to testify. I want to press 19 charges." 20 Why is anybody talking to him, after that, 21 about "Well, is that really what you want to do"? 22 Do you understand? 23 Is that appropriate for your staff to question 24 their willingness to testify after they've already 25 signed it in writing? 197 1 LT. ROBERTSON: What we do is, we have -- 2 we've got two different things going on here. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 4 LT. ROBERTSON: Okay. What you got is 5 criminal stuff taking place. You have internal 6 detention stuff taking place. Okay. You've got 7 the agent closing his portion of it, and you have 8 the jail closing their portion. 9 Initially, he filled out an intent form at the 10 jail to determine whether or not he wishes to press 11 charges. The agent must have relayed that, that he 12 now wishes not to do it. 13 And the sergeant went down and had a 14 declaration of intent form saying he no longer 15 wishes to press charges. So that's record -- 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. I understand that's 17 what happened. I'm asking you as the shift 18 commander, do you think that's appropriate for -- 19 after someone has already put it in writing that 20 they intend to press charges, for anybody in the 21 sheriff's office to talk to them about that again 22 and undo that expression of intent? 23 Would that raise any concerns about -- 24 LT. ROBERTSON: I understand what you're 25 saying. 198 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Is that -- yeah. Is that 2 standard procedure or what? 3 LT. ROBERTSON: We have two separate things 4 happening. And we're not involved in a portion of 5 it. Okay. We have what's going on external of us. 6 And it's being investigated. They're making their 7 decisions based on their policies and procedures. 8 We have what we do internally. And when they 9 say they close it, whatever, we're not involved in 10 this portion at all. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. All right. 12 LT. ROBERTSON: We don't even know what's 13 going on. We don't -- we don't have that 14 information of their investigation taking place 15 externally. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: So after it's gone from your 17 people, and it's gone to -- referred to an agent in 18 the SVU, you're cleared, and that's up to them. 19 And if they talk the person out of pressing 20 charges, or for whatever reason they do or don't 21 refer it for prosecution, that's not your concerns. 22 LT. ROBERTSON: Well, I don't know if I would 23 go that far to say we talked them out. 24 MR. MCFARLAND: No. I didn't say that. 25 LT. ROBERTSON: That -- that -- I know. But 199 1 we're insinuating that maybe we talked somebody out 2 of somebody or you're -- you're insinuating that 3 about a deputy. I don't know what he did. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: We don't. That's right. 5 LT. ROBERTSON: Okay. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah, you're right. 7 Last incident report, three of them. This is 8 Incident Report 07-000997, incident location, AP, 9 in the A Pod, incident date March 15, '07. 10 And Cpl. Freeman, does he work under -- 11 LT. ROBERTSON: I believe at this point in 12 time she belonged to me. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And this indicates that 14 an inmate had told his or her parents that she'd 15 been sexually assaulted by another female inmate 16 two days before; is that right? 17 Do any of you have personal knowledge of this 18 incident? 19 CPL. FOSTER: No, sir. 20 LT. TOMBLIN: No, I do not. 21 LT. ROBERTSON: I would need to see the full 22 report and then the -- if it was mine, my name 23 would be a part of it. I don't -- off the top of 24 my head, I don't recall it. But it is my shift. 25 You know, unless I was on leave or something, yes, 200 1 it would be mine. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. I'm handing you 3 everything I have from your office on that incident 4 report, mainly consists, I think, of the rap sheet 5 of the victim. 6 LT. ROBERTSON: Okay. Yeah, I hadn't gotten 7 down far enough on that. 8 He said Lt. Marion (Phonetic) was on duty this 9 day. That's probably why I don't recall it. The 10 names don't ring a bell. But it was my shift. She 11 was probably working for me. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Why do you -- given this 13 information, do you have any idea why it wasn't 14 referred to the Special Crimes Unit for either 15 their investigation nor to the prosecutor? 16 If this came across your desk and you saw that 17 it wasn't even sent to the Special Victims Unit, 18 would you be a little surprised or -- no? 19 LT. ROBERTSON: Okay. It's hard to -- yeah, 20 I'll try to explain it. It's really difficult to 21 explain. Once it leaves our hands and it gets into 22 the investigator's hands, we don't know what 23 they're doing -- 24 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 25 LT. ROBERTSON: -- you know, where they're at 201 1 in the case, what they're doing and so forth. 2 We've followed our protocol, secured, 3 collected and made everything safe for the agents 4 to go ahead and come in and do their job, who are 5 dual certs (sic), initially, to do their job and 6 begin the investigation. 7 At that point, if necessary they -- my 8 understanding -- that they intercede with various 9 other outside agencies, based on what the case is. 10 And I think Dodson alluded to -- Lt. Dodson alluded 11 to the lines there, where they go with this. 12 But once we finish, we get it all cleared, 13 secured, you know, you can unlock this -- the crime 14 scene, and so forth and so on, we go back to 15 operations. This is being handled by those outside 16 people or the dual sworn deputy. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Maj. Hibbs, I'm going to 18 ask that if -- maybe this was an oversight -- if 19 the sheriff's office would produce any report by 20 the Special Victims Unit on this incident. We 21 didn't get it, and it'd be great if could -- 22 MAJ. HIBBS: There is no report on Special 23 Victims Unit on that case. A deputy -- initial 24 deputy responded was Ken Wilson (sic). To the best 25 of my knowledge Lt. Dodson (Inaudible)... 202 1 But it was not deferred, so -- 2 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. Well, do any of 3 the three of you have any idea what the criteria is 4 for determining whether an allegation of sexual 5 assault gets pursued by the Special Victims Unit 6 investigators or not? 7 LT. ROBERTSON: I do not know what his 8 criteria is -- 9 MR. MCFARLAND: That's right. 10 LT. ROBERTSON: -- for meeting stuff. I know 11 anytime we have an accusation -- 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 13 LT. ROBERTSON: -- we go into action, as if 14 it's real, it's true, and we secure, lock down and 15 collect everything. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 17 LT. ROBERTSON: What they do at their point is 18 outside of our privy. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. Lt. Tomblin, anything 20 else? 21 LT. TOMBLIN: I was just agreeing with 22 Lt. Robertson. Once we give it to them, they're 23 the ones who decide where it's going to go. 24 MR. MCFARLAND: Lt. Dodson, do you have 25 anything to add about this incident or the 203 1 questions I've been asking about why this one 2 evidently wasn't even investigated by SVU? 3 LT. DODSON: Well, it was investigated by 4 Deputy Wilson, investigated by officer -- I'd have 5 to go back and research it to (Inaudible) -- see if 6 we, in fact, refer it to the special victim's 7 crime. But the -- to the point that it was alleged 8 or not, I have to look at some of more evidence. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Sure. 10 LT. DODSON: But it doesn't appear, based on 11 Deputy Wilson's initial response that she felt 12 there would be enough evidence -- called 13 (Inaudible) -- any other unit. That may not be the 14 case. I will double-check on that. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Thank you. 16 LT. DODSON: -- that they are notified. I'll 17 have to go back and research, get back to you -- 18 (Inaudible) -- tells me that there wouldn't be any 19 reason why she would call the -- (Inaudible) -- why 20 she wouldn't have. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Thank you. 22 If your office would provide any subsequent 23 information about the disposition of this 24 investigation on 997, that would be much 25 appreciated. 204 1 Lt. Robertson, if I told you that an inmate 2 was sexually assaulted in some area under your 3 charge yesterday, where would be the first place 4 you'd look? 5 LT. ROBERTSON: If he came to -- you mean, if 6 a report came to me saying that this took place, 7 where would you go? 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Right. Can you just -- you 9 got some intelligence that, "Hey, I can't say 10 anything more but a sexual assault occurred." 11 LT. ROBERTSON: Correct. I would notify my 12 major, major in operations. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. But I'm -- what I'm 14 getting at is, where do you think is the most 15 vulnerable place, if you were an inmate predator, 16 where would you try to pull it off; where'd be -- 17 where would be the safest place to sexually assault 18 another inmate? 19 LT. ROBERTSON: Well, our facility, we're well 20 covered with staff, security checks. You've seen 21 in our bubble area, we have two officers sitting 22 outside the bubbles. 23 We -- as you took your tour yesterday, I think 24 you seen the -- and I was part of the development 25 of the female facility in placement of cameras in 205 1 there to see every bubble. We was very careful at 2 what we did in preparing these two new units to 3 benefit our operation maximally. 4 We -- we took our experience designing these 5 things and made these two units with 6 those expenses, with the cameras in place, put the 7 officers in the place, and the cost of patrols, 8 direct observation, I don't know of an area that 9 would be more vulnerable or less vulnerable. I 10 think we cover everything with security. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, isn't it true that the 12 -- you don't have video cameras in most of the 13 original pods, you've got it in the maximum -- 14 LT. ROBERTSON: Correct. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: -- you've got it in the annex, 16 and you've got it in the tents, right? 17 LT. ROBERTSON: Correct. But there's no areas 18 within those original pods that are not visible to 19 either the control room or the officers roving, and 20 they always go in pairs, except to the cells. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Is there -- isn't it possible 22 that two inmates could be involved in sexual 23 activity behind the closed door of a cell anytime 24 up to 11 o'clock at night as long as it occurred 25 between the time that the roving officer stepped 206 1 out and before he came back for his next irregular 2 drop-in? 3 LT. ROBERTSON: Yeah, that possibility exists. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And isn't it true that 5 there's usually one CT, one Corrections Technician, 6 up in the eye in the sky and looking over, what, 7 five or six pods? 8 LT. ROBERTSON: Yeah, usually one. 9 Quite optimally we'll have two. In some of 10 the high security areas, we'll put two in the 11 control room that can monitor better and be able to 12 get help to the officers quicker upon any need. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: And isn't it true that if you 14 stand on the second tier up by the showers -- 15 LT. ROBERTSON: Correct. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: -- the upstairs shower, that 17 you can -- while you can't see the CT, you can see 18 his or her shadow as to whether she is looking down 19 in your pod or looking somewhere else? 20 LT. ROBERTSON: The possibility may be, if you 21 stay in there long enough and stare long enough. 22 That's why they keep the lights down. Their 23 visibility becomes almost possible to see, which is 24 why they have the windows tinted. We don't want 25 them to see that person, so they can't plan those 207 1 events or plan anything. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Did you -- yesterday I spoke 3 to, you know, a number of inmates and asked about 4 homosexual activity. And I heard that it is -- it 5 does occur and that one individual would be a 6 lookout, standing at the shower, seeing whether the 7 shadow has moved. 8 The CT is no longer watching, the rover just 9 left, so they're not going to be back for an hour, 10 or thereabouts, and anybody has access in any of 11 the cells with doors, closed or open, from, what, 12 6:00 in the morning till 11 o'clock at night. 13 Would you have any reason to dispute that 14 story that I heard yesterday that that can, in 15 fact, happen? 16 LT. ROBERTSON: I mean, I've been there. I've 17 walked around the pods. I look back up there. It 18 is extremely difficult, if at all, to see that 19 person. 20 Can it be done? It's possible. 21 But if the lights are kept down upstairs, that 22 person's almost invisible up there. 23 MR. MCFARLAND: But unless the rover is -- 24 there's a -- unless the rover happens to come in 25 there is no officer in these pods that -- and there 208 1 are also no video cameras, isn't that correct? 2 LT. ROBERTSON: -- that I know of. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: I'm sorry? 4 LT. ROBERTSON: There's no video cameras that 5 I know of in those four housing units. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. And there's no officer 7 physically present unless and until the rovers come 8 by; is that right? 9 LT. ROBERTSON: There's a lot of things going 10 on in the housing unit. There's spells when there 11 is not an officer present, correct. 12 During the day, working in the laundry, I -- 13 we have officers in there for hours on end, moving 14 around the cell blocks doing laundry. 'Cause we 15 have to go through. We have the nurses at the door 16 every day going through. 17 There's a lot of events going on where 18 somebody is at that door continually, large parts 19 of the time, not once an hour. But for a large 20 period of time, we have staff at those areas. 21 MS. ELLIS: I really would like to begin to 22 talk about the grievance procedure. 23 I'd like to call your attention to your 24 grievance procedure. In looking at some of the 25 actual cases that you submitted, on number -- 209 1 Grievance Number 07-000779, do you have that? 2 LT. ROBERTSON: No. 3 LT. TOMBLIN: No. 4 CPL. FOSTER: No. 5 MS. ELLIS: You don't have any of them? 6 LT. ROBERTSON: No. 7 LT. TOMBLIN: No. 8 CPL. FOSTER: No. 9 LT. ROBERTSON: They said they would get me 10 one. 11 MS. ELLIS: Okay. And I guess with this one, 12 I'm supposed to ask you general questions in terms 13 of the types of responses that are given to inmates 14 after the grievance is filed and the tone and the 15 wording that's used. 16 For instance, in this particular one, the 17 inmate has -- has a case to make and has a 18 complaint. And the reply comes back. 19 "You were found guilty of making inappropriate 20 sexual comments to one of my female deputies. Your 21 claim to be gay carried as much weight as it 22 would have if you would have claimed being gay 23 caused you to lock the door (sic). The fact is, 24 for whatever reason, your actions violated 25 jail rules. Your appeal is denied." That's one. 210 1 I would follow that one up with grievance 2 Number 07-000113, in which, again, an inmate makes 3 a complaint. And I won't read the response 4 entirely. I would just draw your attention to the 5 last sentence. 6 "The only people that can change that is 7 Cmdr. Susan Jeter. But don't write -- don't bother 8 writing her. She agrees with me," signed by Maj. 9 Brown; and Maj. Brown made both of these replies to 10 the inmate. 11 And I'm just asking, in general, is this 12 generally the tone, rather cryptic, it's kind of 13 in-your-face, to a certain extent, in the answer, 14 rather than giving an answer that -- that explains 15 and gives some reason why, some definite reason why 16 that makes sense with some regard to the 17 intelligence of the inmate? 18 CPL. FOSTER: No, ma'am. 19 I did a report on Grievance 1871. And I did a 20 response back to them. She was asking why he 21 couldn't be a trustee. 22 MS. ELLIS: I saw that one, I do believe. 23 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, ma'am. 24 MR. MCFARLAND: And that one was well done. 25 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, ma'am. 211 1 MS. ELLIS: But -- and granted. 2 But these others seem to me to be a bit 3 unprofessional, to a certain extent, in terms of 4 answering and responding back. 5 But I also want to draw your attention to 6 Grievance Number 07-000431. And I'm referring back 7 to a case that we discussed earlier this morning. 8 Is this the same individual? 9 Earlier we had two reports. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 11 MS. ELLIS: -- involving this particular 12 individual who lodges this complaint. And I only 13 raise the question here, because I believe earlier 14 this morning in our discussion, Lt. Dodson 15 indicated that this individual had some problems. 16 And I'm wondering if -- 17 CPL. FOSTER: Referring to 0512 -- is the -- 18 MS. ELLIS: The incident report that we 19 discussed before lunch; I'm wondering, in this 20 instance, would this individual -- is this an 21 example of kind of, perhaps, the trouble or the 22 nuisance behavior or complaints that typified this 23 individual? 24 LT. ROBERTSON: Well, we can go back, as you 25 said, I mean, if you look at the bulk of the 212 1 grievances, they're -- they're written probably 2 well, written by a large number of people in many 3 different ways based on our understanding of the 4 inmates. 5 I'm not speaking for Maj. Brown, 'cause he's 6 retired. But he had been with the agency for many, 7 many years and was very familiar with the inmate, 8 spent large amounts of time down in the housing 9 units and got to know these people. 10 So some of this is between him and them, quite 11 possibly of a nature (sic). That's just my 12 speculating on that. Okay. 13 As for -- as for the majority of these things, 14 I think it's, as Cpl. Foster stated, we work 15 diligently to respond back to these in a 16 professional manner. Sometimes people could use 17 better -- better forms of communicating this to -- 18 back to the inmates. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Lieutenant. 20 LT. ROBERTSON: Yes, sir. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: How does somebody get a clean 22 change uniform; you have to turn in the dirty one, 23 right? 24 LT. ROBERTSON: Yeah. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you have -- 213 1 LT. ROBERTSON: And they have rags where they 2 bring with new uniforms on them (sic). They 3 exchange a uniform for a uniform, a sheet for a 4 sheet, a towel for a towel, so forth, like that. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: So the inmates don't have a 6 third uniform that they can have on that they can 7 be wearing and turn in the dirty one and get 8 another clean one. 9 LT. ROBERTSON: No. That's not our policy. 10 Everybody has one uniform; except for the trustees, 11 they have multiple uniforms, because they go to 12 work, they're dirty. 13 They can replace their uniforms daily with a 14 clean one and change those out. They get changed 15 according to Florida Model Jail Standard. 16 MS. ELLIS: Do you see this as problematic, 17 that there may be times when an inmate may not -- 18 for whatever reason -- have a uniform to turn in 19 and that person, then, is relegated to walking 20 around with a sheet? 21 LT. ROBERTSON: Correct. And I've -- we've 22 worked at that to correct that problem. We've, I 23 believe, purchased some extra laundry so we do not 24 run short. We've also opened the sewing program 25 and -- and a bedding program, making our own stuff. 214 1 So, hopefully, we've eliminated those issues. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Looking at Grievance 431; 3 individual had to stand there naked while he's 4 waiting to get a clean uniform, 'cause he can't get 5 a clean one until he turns in the dirty one. Isn't 6 that kind of demeaning? 7 LT. ROBERTSON: Yes. I don't even need to 8 look at that to probably tell you that's not what 9 happened. She probably had something to wear or 10 wrap in. And, again, these issues were addressed, 11 and we have corrected those. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: What does "ATW" mean? 13 LT. ROBERTSON: All the way. 14 MS. ELLIS: Pardon? 15 LT. ROBERTSON: They've gone home, one way or 16 the other. 17 MS. ELLIS: Oh. 18 LT. ROBERTSON: Either they've gone to D.O.C., 19 they've gone home, they been bonded out, they've 20 been released from our custody. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: I see. 22 MS. ELLIS: We have a complaint filed by the 23 individual that we discussed earlier related to the 24 suicide attempt and, seemingly, a similar type of 25 complaint having to do with female inmates not 215 1 being issued underwear and having to march in front 2 of males and their embarrassment and feeling that 3 their dignity was being denied, along those lines. 4 With this a particular grievance, I don't know 5 if -- while I'm looking at the dates, how did the 6 date kind of coincide with the events surrounding 7 this particular inmate? 8 LT. ROBERTSON: Do you have the date of that? 9 MS. ELLIS: The day -- incident date was 10 12/22/07, and I think we were talking about -- 11 LT. ROBERTSON: So, yeah. We were still in 12 the -- in the old complex. The female facility 13 hadn't been opened yet. What's the grievance 14 number again? 15 MS. ELLIS: That would be 07-002721. Just 16 wondering how that -- 17 LT. ROBERTSON: As reflected here, the 18 commander informed me during this period of time 19 she was in the bubble area, a 15-minute watch, for 20 mental health issues and suicidal thoughts or 21 etiologies. 22 So she's not going to get the same privacy 23 that another inmate may get, being left alone, 24 prospect -- (Inaudible) -- themselves, so she's 25 going to be exposed to a little bit more openness. 216 1 As you can tell, when you saw our bubble areas, 2 they're exposed to a little bit more openness, 3 because we have to monitor them very closely. 4 MS. ELLIS: And, also, I'm referring you to 5 Grievance Number 07-002743. And, again, we have an 6 inmate making a complaint about a threat or threats 7 being made to him. 8 And we have the reply coming back from 9 Lt. Canada. And I'm looking at his reply, about 10 the second or third sentence from the end of the 11 paragraph. And the reply: 12 "No officers joke about issues of this sort." 13 And the reply: 14 "And again -- but I assure you, this matter 15 will be taken very serious. Sgt. Dillon will meet 16 with you concerning this grievance for additional 17 information. 18 Due to being concerned, you will be housed in 19 the protective custody and have mental health 20 interview you today. We want to find out who the 21 officer is that is -- that you're speaking of." 22 And then the statement, "No officers joke 23 about issues of this nature. So we will find out 24 the full facts on this incident. Based on your 25 information to Sgt. Dillon, you admitted that no 217 1 one has ever put their hands on you or has offered 2 to touch you and have not an -- any issues at this 3 time. 4 You state the officer was a female officer, 5 wants to see if there's medical (sic). More 6 details will be checked out." 7 I -- again, I look at the tone, and Lt. Canada 8 makes a good start, an effort toward what I 9 consider to be an acceptable appropriate reply; but 10 it soon dissolves into a statement that officers do 11 not joke about issues of this nature, 12 unequivocally, so to speak, and that this will be 13 checked out and -- and, by the way, "Nobody put a 14 hand on you anyway." 15 This individual is making the complaint about 16 the threat, not about the actuality. So I just am 17 looking at how the attention that seems to be given 18 to these complaints and how they're handled seems 19 to me to be inconsistent to a certain degree. 20 LT. ROBERTSON: I understand your concern in 21 the areas that you talk about here. Better 22 phrasing or better wording would be much more 23 appropriate in some of these areas. 24 MR. MCFARLAND: Lieutenant, what does "LOP" 25 (sic) mean? 218 1 LT. TOMBLIN: Loss of all privileges. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Grievance 2416. I have copies 3 for you. 4 Cpl. Foster, showing you Grievance 2416. 5 CPL. FOSTER: Yeah. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: You have a complaint in which 7 this female inmate says that something occurred the 8 same night Cpl. Marino (Phonetic) was having sex 9 with -- names a female -- who gets to make phone 10 calls every day when she is -- even when she is 11 LOAP. 12 "How can I make a phone call at the correct 13 time without having to have sex with an officer?" 14 Do you recall this grievance in November of 15 last year? 16 CPL. FOSTER: No. Like I said, I would've put 17 it up for today. But, like I said, I don't recall 18 it. Like I said, I know it's still open, because 19 we never got a response back, but -- 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Never got a response from the 21 supervisor? 22 CPL. FOSTER: Yeah. Like I said, he hasn't 23 even responded back. I don't know, like I say, you 24 know, the where or what, I'm not sure. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: And Maj. Brown retired and 219 1 it's -- 2 CPL. FOSTER: Well, actually, that would've 3 been -- it was Lt. Pellasee that it was assigned to 4 that was -- 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh, yes. 6 CPL. FOSTER: And like I said -- 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you have any idea what 8 they're -- what this female inmate is talking 9 about? 10 Seems to be alleging that one of her fellow 11 inmate gives sexual favors to a corporal and 12 that -- in return for being able to make phone 13 calls even when she's LOAP. 14 CPL. FOSTER: No. Like I said, I wouldn't 15 have been the one entered in there. It would've 16 been a clerk in the office. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you -- how many of these do 18 you review? 19 CPL. FOSTER: Of these? 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes; any grievance. 21 CPL. FOSTER: Actually, like I said, the -- 22 it's the clerk in there that puts them in. 23 MR. MCFARLAND: So you never -- you never read 24 these? 25 LT. ROBERTSON: Not unless they bring one to 220 1 my attention. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And is this the kind of 3 thing that would grab somebody's attention in your 4 office, an allegation that one of your officers is 5 having sex -- trading sex -- for privileges with an 6 inmate? 7 CPL. FOSTER: Yes. That's -- like I said, 8 that's why they would've sent it to a lieutenant. 9 But I can tell you right now -- and I'm not 10 trying to make excuses for her. But she was new, 11 Sylvia Lopez (Phonetic.) She was my newest clerk 12 in there. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh, that's the "SL" in the 14 lower left corner? 15 LT. ROBERTSON: Yes, sir. Like I said, I'm 16 not making excuses, like I said, but I know she was 17 new at that time. 18 MS. ELLIS: Grievance Number 07-0005108. We 19 have a female inmate here who makes some complaints 20 against staff. Is it "Cpl. Getz"? 21 LT. ROBERTSON: Yes. 22 MS. ELLIS: Is that the pronunciation of his 23 name? 24 LT. ROBERTSON: Correct. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you have that one in front 221 1 of you? 2 LT. ROBERTSON: We're looking for it. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: If she says, in effect, that 4 "I'm letting it be known that every time Cpl. Getz 5 or Officer Hull comes to work, I always have a 6 problem out of me. I'm constantly getting harassed 7 and verbally threatened. 8 I've been letting other officers in OICS's 9 know about the problem I've been having. I've 10 written it up several times, because one time I was 11 seized in a sexually (sic) manner by Cpl. Getz. 12 But he wasn't a corporal at the time. 13 So now I'm letting Cpl. Stokes know -- know 14 I've advised my family, because I'm constantly 15 having problems with it. They intimidate me every 16 time they come to work. 17 And someone or somebody help me, because I'm 18 seriously getting hurt, because I don't think 19 they're paying -- playing when they say they're 20 going to 'F' me up because I -- before I leave 21 here. 22 So I'm giving this grievance to Cpl. Stokes, 23 because I know that he's going to turn this in." 24 And then you can see the response to this 25 inmate below, the response information. Do you 222 1 have any knowledge about this particular case? 2 LT. ROBERTSON: I've known about this 3 particular case. I knew about this particular 4 inmate. 5 MS. ELLIS: Okay. 6 LT. ROBERTSON: Many of these responses or 7 many of these grievances -- this one in particular 8 -- is inmates in AC confinement. We house some of 9 our most senior officers in that area with the most 10 amount of experience to deal with these types of 11 individuals. 12 They don't put up with anything. They're 13 no-nonsense. They're by the book. They're by the 14 rules. They are not going to allow these guys to 15 pull any games on them to get these privileges, get 16 those things. 17 And because of that, they're constantly 18 maneuvering or manipulating or attempting to do 19 things to get these officers removed out of this 20 housing unit. 21 I believe Cpl. Getz was also a corporal in 22 that pod; and Cpl. Stoke belongs to me, who is a 23 corporal of that pod. 24 There's many ways that they go about trying to 25 remove (sic) the pressure of the officers out of 223 1 those housing units, because they like a newer, or 2 less-experienced officer who they can work on to 3 get favors or they can get this or get out for an 4 extra phone call. 5 These officers are going to follow the policy. 6 They're going to do telephones when they're 7 supposed to do telephones. They're going to do 8 visitation when they're supposed to do visitation. 9 They're not going to allow these inmates to come 10 out and do things that they are not privileged to 11 on that particular day. 12 I'm just giving you a feel for some of these 13 reasonings for some of these grievances. You have 14 to understand the inmates a little bit when you 15 look at some of these. 16 This inmate has a -- a dangerous and violent 17 history, in our facility, towards the officers. I 18 believe he has a lot of disciplinary actions. 19 That's why he's in AC confinement. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: You brought up AC confinement; 21 that's administrative confinement? 22 LT. ROBERTSON: Yes, sir. 23 MR. MCFARLAND: Cpl. Foster, is there a form 24 for requesting protective custody? 25 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir, for protective 224 1 custody, yes, sir. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: And if you asked for that you 3 get put in AC, right? 4 CPL. FOSTER: No. Protective custody is 5 different than administrative confinement. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. What's the difference? 7 CPL. FOSTER: Protective custody is requested 8 by inmate, but administrative confinement is when 9 -- usually, if the inmate poses a threat to a 10 inmate or like a officer, they'll be placed in 11 there. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Don't they get -- wind up in 13 the same place? 14 CPL. FOSTER: No. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Where do -- 16 CPL. FOSTER: You see, like I said -- like I 17 said, they might be in the same housing area. But 18 the -- like cell -- a cell (sic) would be like 19 protective custody in one and the administrative 20 confinements in another. There is a difference, 21 yes, sir. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: So if somebody said, "I'm 23 getting hit on, I'm -- you know, I'm gay, I'm -- or 24 I'm perceived to be gay and -- and folks have 25 threatened me or they've assaulted me, I need 225 1 protective custody," they'd fill out a form. 2 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. 3 Or if the officer sees it, like I said, they 4 can fill out a form, and they just -- that'll go on 5 under as the privileges, stuff like that (sic). 6 They go into protective custody, which is separated 7 from the general population. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Where is the cell block for 9 males for protective custody? 10 CPL. FOSTER: Like I said, there's some down 11 in 300 Alpha. I don't if you went down there. And 12 then, also, there's some down in 500 Alpha, too. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And then what would 14 happen -- where does administrative confinement 15 occur; it could be in 300 Alpha, as well? 16 CPL. FOSTER: Yeah. It just different -- 17 usually, they keep them in different levels. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 19 CPL. FOSTER: And, like I said, different 20 cells. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: And is there some -- do you 22 lose some programming privileges or other 23 privileges for being under protective custody? 24 CPL. FOSTER: You are kind of restricted by -- 25 in the -- (Inaudible) -- yes, sir. You'll get out, 226 1 but like I said, the phone and showers, visitation, 2 you'll get recreation at least a minimum of three 3 times a week, so -- but you don't have to go in 4 there for any disciplinary reasons if you just want 5 to be separated from population. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: But as a practical manner 7 both -- while they're together, they're ending up 8 -- they're both ending up behind locked doors, 9 right, administrative confinement and protective 10 custody? 11 CPL. FOSTER: Yeah. But usually if it's 12 administrative, they'll get something -- 13 disciplinary, so they could get both. They could 14 get loss of all privileges. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 16 CPL. FOSTER: Plus administrative confinement, 17 because -- 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. So the -- but isn't it 19 true, then, that an inmate's going to have to think 20 twice about asking for protective custody, because 21 they're going to lose some privileges, mainly being 22 able to wander around in the dayroom until 23 11 o'clock at night; is that right? 24 CPL. FOSTER: Protective custody is separate 25 from general population. 227 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. So they still get their 2 food, they still get their recreation, they still 3 get a shower; but can they go to programming, 4 protective custody? 5 CPL. FOSTER: Now, like I said, they -- they 6 can request the material and it'd be brought to 7 them. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. But they're locked in 9 their cell if they're under protective custody; is 10 that right? 11 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Is that yes? 13 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: And they're locked in a cell 15 if they're administrative confinement for 16 disciplinary purposes, right? 17 CPL. FOSTER: Yes. But, like I said, with 18 them if they get the disciplinary, they lose their 19 privileges, phone, visitation, all that. 20 MS. ELLIS: Okay. Grievance Number 1936, just 21 briefly, is this an example of taking action on a 22 complaint? 23 The officers were taking proper actions and 24 did listen to you when this person lodges a 25 complaint, and apparently it was considered serious 228 1 and something's happening, or something did happen, 2 is this a positive response, an example of one, 3 positive effort to take corrective action? 4 LT. ROBERTSON: I agree, the response -- 5 without all the facts, it's hard to tell what he's 6 -- he's explaining here. I don't have all the 7 facts. 8 It appears to me, to some degree, he's aware 9 of more than what's on this paper. But I don't 10 have those facts to read into this. But on face 11 value, it could've been extended a little bit, 12 maybe more explained. 13 MS. ELLIS: And given these responses, these 14 replies, in general, is there any effort to work 15 on -- on your form and how you approach them and 16 answer and respond to people with explicit kinds of 17 information that they can fully ingest and 18 understand and, at the same time, have you be aware 19 of exactly what's going on with each and every one 20 of these cases? 21 There was one here from Maj. Brown who, I 22 understand, is gone on now, who actually indicates 23 that he's offended and "Could we've come up with a 24 better lie" and that kind of language. 25 So, clearly, this is an area where you might 229 1 want to do some real work in training. 2 LT. ROBERTSON: Correct. And I believe we are 3 going to address that. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Cpl. Foster, let me ask you 5 about classification. Do you ask a new admittee 6 their sexual orientation? 7 CPL. FOSTER: No, sir. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Why not? 9 CPL. FOSTER: We just don't ask them that. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you think it's relevant to 11 know that? 12 CPL. FOSTER: No. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. You wouldn't want to 14 know that if -- when you're assigning them their 15 housing? 16 CPL. FOSTER: No. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Is there any -- do you 18 ask whether they have ever been involved in sexual 19 assault as a predator? 20 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. During the intake 21 screening, I think it's Question 23 and 24, they're 22 asked that question. 23 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. I'm looking at Armor 24 Correctional Health Services, Inc., Mental Health 25 Intake Screening. It's document MH-0114; is that 230 1 it? 2 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Is that it? 4 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: And on Question 21 it's, "Have 6 you ever been a victim of sexual assault or 7 physical abuse, yes or no," and "Have you ever 8 perpetrated sexual assault or physically abuse, yes 9 or no." Is that what you were referring to? 10 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And then it says, in 12 parenthesis, "If yes, Routine MH Refer." 13 Does that mean that if either of those answers 14 are -- are -- an inmate indicates "Yes" to either 15 of those questions, they automatically go to mental 16 health for further questioning? 17 CPL. FOSTER: Yeah. The victim would be in -- 18 in protective custody on a 15-minute watch, and the 19 perpetrator would be in administrative confinement 20 on a 15-minute watch. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Well, but is that 22 before or after they go to mental health? 23 CPL. FOSTER: Before. But what happens is the 24 nurse will initiate a special security request and 25 give it to the button (sic) supervisor. 231 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And, now, who does this 2 initial mental health intake screening that you 3 just talked about? 4 CPL. FOSTER: It's the intake nurse, sir. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And does she -- he or 6 she also do the intake health screening by health 7 trained staff? 8 This is Armor PT-051; is this the one? 9 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: And it's a two-page form, 11 right? 12 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Is there anything on that 14 intake that is important to you in determining 15 whether somebody might be a sexual-assault predator 16 or victim? 17 CPL. FOSTER: What's important with that one 18 is as she goes through the list and they find out 19 they have some kind of special needs, like medical 20 or mental health, we'll put them in dorms. 21 So that's -- like I said, that's very 22 important. That's -- there's a lot of times we put 23 -- like I said, they got like a disabled, for some 24 reason, they'll go to the mental, or if they take 25 mental health drugs, they'll go to mental health. 232 1 MR. MCFARLAND: I see. So by "dorm" you mean, 2 you know, the mental health or medical facility? 3 CPL. FOSTER: Yeah, the mental facility, yes, 4 sir. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. Those are very nice. 6 There's -- now, once the individual goes -- I'll 7 ask a later witness about this, but is it -- do 8 you -- are these the forms that are then filled out 9 in the mental health for this additional screening, 10 if they answer yes to Questions 21 or 22 or should 11 I -- 12 CPL. FOSTER: The one -- 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you know? 14 CPL. FOSTER: The ones I know, the medical 15 days, I think they just put a special security 16 request. I'm not 100 percent sure. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Is this special security 18 request, this one-pager by -- 19 CPL. FOSTER: Yeah. Yes, sir. That's the 20 one, when they send out to the housing unit. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. But this -- 22 CPL. FOSTER: But also -- they also might fill 23 out additional paperwork. But I -- Chris probably 24 would be the best to answer that. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. I'll do that. 233 1 And who fills out this special security 2 request? 3 CPL. FOSTER: The nurse, sir. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Is that under your 5 purviews or classification? 6 CPL. FOSTER: Yeah. The next day, what we do 7 is review the special security request that comes 8 in from the night before or the day before. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: So that's where you would 10 sign; as classification officer, you would have to 11 sign this form; is that right? 12 CPL. FOSTER: We don't actually have to sign. 13 But any additional comments on there, we put them 14 on a contact card, say if they're lower level, 15 lower bank, sees (sic) your protocol. 16 If they're a diabetic, we make sure they get 17 proper tags. So, like I said, any special security 18 request that comes in -- like I said, anybody puts 19 in, the nurse will look at it, the forensics 20 officer puts it in also. 21 The following day, they'll put -- like I said, 22 if the guy's a diabetic, they'll put a diabetic tag 23 on them. If it's a seizure, they'll put a seizure 24 tag on them. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: Why isn't there a tag for 234 1 somebody who has a high risk of being a 2 sexual-assault predator? 3 CPL. FOSTER: We had the one that's alleged 4 sexual predator or victim. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah, that question. 6 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: But what happens besides that 8 person being sent either to protective custody or 9 et sec (sic) or administrative confinement and 10 getting a mental health referral, is there anything 11 that stays with that person's name tag or file so 12 that, in the same way they're tagged as a diabetic, 13 this individual is tagged as being a sexual 14 predator? 15 CPL. FOSTER: Well, like I said, during intake 16 if they identify that person as a sexual predator, 17 they'll go ahead and, like I said, they'll put him 18 in the bubble on administrative confinement, could 19 tagged "Administrative Confinement." 20 Now, he won't come out of that until 21 administration designee say yes. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Until when? 23 LT. ROBERTSON: The designee, the 24 administrative designee whosever in charge of that 25 at that time. So they'll stay in AC status until 235 1 they say they're not a threat anymore. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: I see. 3 CPL. FOSTER: So there is a administrative 4 tag. It just gets placed on there when they 5 identify him as a "Predator." 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 7 CPL. FOSTER: And the nurse can initiate that 8 through intake. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Great. 10 MS. ELLIS: In follow-up on, again, that 11 event -- opening gamut this morning -- when we 12 talked about characteristics of potential victims 13 of sexual assault. 14 Would it be helpful, then, to ask the question 15 when inmates come in, regarding their sexual 16 orientation? 17 Because you may not necessarily recognize, 18 through appearance, what an individual's sexual 19 orientation might be. 20 Is that a useful question? 21 Is that something that you might want to 22 consider asking, or is that something that you have 23 reached out to other institutions to determine 24 whether or not they do, in fact, ask that question? 25 CPL. FOSTER: We try, like I said, to give 236 1 equal protection to all inmates, like I said, but 2 that's something we don't ask, ma'am. 3 MS. ELLIS: Might you consider it? 4 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, ma'am. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Lt. Robertson. 6 LT. ROBERTSON: Yes, sir. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: What are some ways that can be 8 used to address the problem of exposure of a male 9 or female staff when they're working with 10 opposite-gender inmates? 11 In other words, you know, what do you think 12 can be done to reduce the number of occasions when 13 a female officer has to come upon a male inmate 14 who's masturbating? 15 LT. ROBERTSON: We can criminally charge them; 16 which I do quite often. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: And what's the process of 18 doing that? 19 LT. ROBERTSON: Again, we call a dual 20 certified officer. We take their statement. And 21 they file paperwork, and they're criminally 22 charged. 23 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So those do get 24 referred to -- for prosecution? 25 LT. ROBERTSON: That I know of, yes. 237 1 MR. MCFARLAND: So, does that add to their 2 time or something or they go into -- 3 LT. ROBERTSON: It could. A lot of the ones 4 that are really bad about that, people facing 5 life-and-death sentences, they really don't care. 6 You know, they really don't care. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. Can you -- do you -- do 8 they lose any additional privileges; do they go 9 LOAP? 10 LT. ROBERTSON: They could. Oftentimes, these 11 people are placed in administrative confinement, 12 and they will go LOAP and lose their privileges, 13 equally; along with the criminal charge, we go both 14 ways. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, aside from those who 16 have nothing to lose from -- from that kind of a 17 activity, what else could be done to avoid indecent 18 exposure by inmates of the opposite sex or same 19 sex, for that matter? 20 LT. ROBERTSON: That's true, too. 21 Offhand it -- it just doesn't come to my mind 22 right now, offhand, what we could do to prevent an 23 inmate from doing something if he so chooses to. 24 MR. MCFARLAND: What do you think about having 25 the rovers be of the same gender as the inmates? 238 1 LT. ROBERTSON: Well, you know, we have both. 2 As you can tell, in the information you got, 3 who both have male and female officers, they must 4 be treated equally and the same. We cannot choose 5 to put males only with males and females only with 6 females. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, I know that the -- I'm 8 asking not for your legal opinion as to what's 9 legally possible, but if -- if -- just from a 10 policy standpoint, from a -- as a matter of 11 preventing this sort of action and of eliminating a 12 sexualized environment, if you were king of the 13 forest, would you have female officers in a -- in 14 the -- you know, the male -- male housing facility? 15 LT. ROBERTSON: I don't see any reason why we 16 should. And there's no reason to discriminate in 17 that -- that nature. They need to act 18 appropriately, no matter what. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: It doesn't bother you that a 20 female officer can walk any time they want into a 21 shower and check out what's going on in there, as a 22 rover? 23 LT. ROBERTSON: No. They have a -- they're 24 professionals, and they're expected to act 25 professionally. If they get out of line and 239 1 somebody that believes that they're lying, that 2 would be processed forward, and we would look into 3 that. 4 MS. ELLIS: Have there been instances of 5 someone getting out of line? 6 LT. ROBERTSON: We have accusations all the 7 time of people out of line or, as you say, 8 grievances. Many times these things are filed 9 through the grievance. 10 You know, this officer is doing this, that and 11 the other. You seen it in the ones you've read. 12 These have to be looked into and verified whether 13 these events really did happen or didn't happen so 14 we can take the appropriate disciplinary action, 15 administratively. 16 So we do look at these thing to determine how 17 much validity there is to what they're saying the 18 officers are doing. 19 MS. ELLIS: Is there a lot of talk among 20 inmates, sometimes, about what might be happening 21 as far as those accusations are concerned, 22 rumblings; do people talk? 23 It seems to me that there's a lot of room and 24 opportunity for there to be a lot of exchange of 25 information and he-said, she-said. 240 1 LT. ROBERTSON: Yeah. I don't get a lot of 2 that information at my level, what is talked about 3 by the officers in a lower level. 4 I spend a awful lot of time out in the pods. 5 We're all required to spend a great deal of our day 6 in the housing units assuring that they're kept 7 clean, ensure our availability to the officers, the 8 supervision and also our availability to the 9 inmates for any issues or concerns. 10 So I could spend as much as four to six hours 11 a day moving from pod to pod to pod, supervising 12 the activities down there, checking on what the 13 officers are doing, assuring that they're doing 14 their job appropriately. 15 And while I'm there the inmates are exposed to 16 me, and I have no problem talking to any of them. 17 I have no problem going anywhere within the jail 18 inside the cell blocks, sit down, and -- and we 19 will talk, whatever they want to talk about. 20 MS. ELLIS: At what level do you think that 21 exchange might come between staff and inmate about 22 gossip and what's going on and kinda the day to 23 day -- 24 LT. ROBERTSON: I think that stays at the 25 lowest levels. A lot of times, your gossip and 241 1 things of that, a lot of -- 2 MS. ELLIS: Lowest level, meaning which -- 3 which level? 4 LT. ROBERTSON: Officer level. 5 MS. ELLIS: So if there was some reaction to 6 females being in showers or inappropriate behavior, 7 that's where you might find that kind of general, 8 "Well, she does this" or "He does that" kinda talk? 9 LT. ROBERTSON: You'd be surprised how that 10 floats to the top. When people start seeing or 11 hearing about somebody doing something, it floats 12 to the top rather quickly, and somebody becomes 13 aware of it, and then it gets into our hands, and 14 we investigate it. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Lt. Robertson, when's the last 16 time an officer came to you and alleged to -- you 17 know, reported a suspected sexual assault, either 18 inmate on inmate or staff on inmate? 19 LT. ROBERTSON: -- involved in the one, I 20 assume, is that the -- that's close to the end of 21 the year 2007 (sic). That one I'm aware of. 22 Off the top of my head, I don't know if 23 there's any since then, more recently. But I'm 24 aware of that one. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: How about before then, how 242 1 many times have you heard of a report of sexual 2 assault at that facility? 3 LT. ROBERTSON: Inmate-on-inmate? 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes; in your 19 years or 21 5 years. 6 LT. ROBERTSON: -- meaning -- hearing it from 7 time to time (sic). You know, just -- just like 8 you're seeing with the grievances and the 10 cases 9 we got, from time to time that would arise. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 11 LT. ROBERTSON: When it does, we go into gear, 12 implement the policies and procedures and take the 13 action necessary that we're required to. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Was 2007 a pretty typical year 15 in that regard? 16 LT. ROBERTSON: I have no idea. I don't have 17 no -- nothing to the statistics. I don't know if 18 that's normal compared to the year before or the 19 year after. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: You think that the situation, 21 the sexual safety of the facility improved when you 22 added the tents and moved the women from 100 to the 23 annex? 24 LT. ROBERTSON: There's no data to that 25 effect. But I do believe reducing that 243 1 overcrowding and spreading people out, getting 2 people out of the dayrooms and putting them back in 3 cells probably helps enormously, sure. That's an 4 opinion. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: When is the last time, in your 6 experience, that an officer was alleged to have 7 known but failed to report a inmate-on-inmate 8 sexual assault; has that ever happened in your 21 9 years? 10 LT. ROBERTSON: I don't know of any, no. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: How about Lt. Tomblin? 12 LT. TOMBLIN: No, sir. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: And same prior question to 14 you, Lt. Tomblin, about has there ever -- how many 15 times have you become aware of a report of 16 inmate-on-inmate sexual assault in your 14 years? 17 LT. TOMBLIN: I can't give you an exact number 18 but, but I've been involved in a couple over the 19 years. But exactly what they were about, I can't 20 recall right now. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. I don't want to walk 22 through all those same 10 or 11 incidents. As we 23 were going through them did you, Lt. Tomblin, have 24 any personal involvement in any of those? 25 LT. TOMBLIN: No, I did not. 244 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Lt. Robertson, other 2 than the Simmons matter, were there any other -- 3 any of those that we talked with Lt. Dodson about 4 that you were involved in? 5 LT. ROBERTSON: No, sir; just the Simmons one, 6 the Simmons. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: And Cpl. Foster? 8 CPL. FOSTER: No. Just after the fact, 9 reading the report. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. Cpl. Foster, are you in 11 charge of orienting the new admittees? 12 CPL. FOSTER: No, sir. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Who is? 14 CPL. FOSTER: Now, they'll get the inmate 15 handbook through the intake process in booking. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 17 CPL. FOSTER: And the video they're watching, 18 they'll get from programs. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: What is there -- what 20 information does a new admittee get about sexual 21 assault? 22 CPL. FOSTER: They get the inmate handbook, 23 and I think there's, like, a page and a half on 24 there. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 245 1 CPL. FOSTER: And also we have postings 2 throughout the facility and, like I said -- 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Postings went up about a week 4 and a half ago. 5 CPL. FOSTER: Yes. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Right? 7 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, sir. And, like I said, 8 they're getting the video, yes, sir. The program 9 officer's taking a video around and showing it to 10 all the cell blocks. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: When did that video start, a 12 year ago, a month ago, ten years ago? 13 CPL. FOSTER: I -- 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Cmdr. Jeter. 15 CMDR. JETER: -- believe we just initiated 16 that, too. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So does anybody talk 18 to -- this would be addressed to any of the three 19 of you. 20 Does anybody go over that page and a half in 21 the handbook with the inmates and say, "Okay. 22 Here's the deal about sexual assault. There is no 23 such thing as consensual assault, consensual sex. 24 There's no such thing as staff-on-inmate 25 relationships. We have a strict zero-tolerance 246 1 policy, and here are the ways you can report." 2 Does anybody do that? 3 Do any of you know about what -- 4 LT. ROBERTSON: I believe there's a light 5 discussions in your handbook. It tells you the 6 things you can and cannot do, the things you need 7 to do and not do. 8 But, as I stated, we've -- we've hung up the 9 new posters and also started with the videos, and 10 now they are being made aware of all of these 11 events when they get in. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: When we get to Cmdr. Jeter, 13 I'll just defer that question for the last Panel. 14 I just wanted to see, at your level, 15 whether -- when I talk to inmates that was a 16 question I always asked is, "What do you know about 17 sexual assault, did you get a" -- and "Did you get 18 a handbook." 19 Some of them said, "Yeah, I got a handbook. 20 Did you read that page? 21 No, I didn't. 22 What do you know about how to report it? 23 I don't know. I guess a grievance form." 24 So, for what that's worth, I just pass that 25 on. There's not a high visibility of your policy, 247 1 at least among those that I spoke with. 2 LT. ROBERTSON: We do -- we have signage 3 within the cell blocks, also, that post all that 4 stuff. I'm not sure if you had seen that, too. 5 But we have signage up where all the policies 6 and procedure are posted within the pods, things of 7 nature also, so. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Does it -- including that page 9 and a half from the handbook? 10 I haven't seen any of that, but I may have 11 just -- 12 LT. ROBERTSON: I'm not sure at this time, but 13 as I said, that's been a new addition. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Well, Gentlemen, thank 15 you very much for your patience and your candor. 16 And I think next we'll have the next Panel. 17 MS. ELLIS: Thank you everyone. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Next Panel will be Orville 19 Clayton, Director of the Mental Health Program at 20 the jail complex, Christopher Bourque, the licensed 21 practical nurse; and are both of them here? 22 Good afternoon, Gentlemen. Would you mind 23 raising your right hand. 24 (Whereupon, ORVILLE CLAYTON and CHRISTOPHER 25 BOURQUE, having been duly sworn to tell the truth, the 248 1 whole truth and nothing but the truth, were examined and 2 testified as follows:) 3 MR. MCFARLAND: State your name and title and 4 duties, for the record, Mr. Clayton. 5 MR. CLAYTON: I'm Orville Clayton. I'm the 6 mental health director with Brevard County Jail 7 Complex. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: How long have you had that 9 position? 10 MR. CLAYTON: For the past four years. New 11 kid on the block. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: I'm sorry? 13 MR. CLAYTON: I said, "New kid on the block." 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 15 And, Mr. Bourque, how long have you been the 16 health services administrator? 17 MR. BOURQUE: I've been acting since March of 18 this year, been put there permanently since June of 19 this year. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: And what were you doing in 21 the -- at the jail in 2007? 22 MR. BOURQUE: In February 2007 I was hired on 23 with Armor as a contract employee with the 24 sheriff's office, and I was a pod nurse on the 25 night shift, passing medications. 249 1 In September I took over management of the 2 pharmacy and medical supply area. And in December 3 I took over, for a short period of time, the 4 accreditation coordinator position in an attempt to 5 get our standards up to par. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Standards on the pharmacy 7 or -- 8 MR. BOURQUE: It was for the medical 9 operations towards a NCC, the National Correctional 10 Health Care Corporation Standards. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: And when did the new very 12 impressive medical facility or wing open, was that 13 April? 14 MR. BOURQUE: I believe it was April of this 15 year. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And you head that up; 17 are you in charge of that, the medical facilities 18 at the jail? 19 MR. BOURQUE: My responsibility is the 20 coordination of the health care within the facility 21 for all of our patients, yes. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Mr. Clayton, when 23 you -- when your staff are referred an individual 24 who has said "Yes" to that what they -- to the 25 mental health intake screening Question 21 or 22, 250 1 what happens? 2 MR. CLAYTON: We see them as quickly as 3 possible, generally, the same day. And we complete 4 a complete assessment. 5 We give them a mental status assessment. 6 Since I was -- and, certainly, we look at the risk 7 of both sexual victim -- victimization as well as 8 potential to be a perpetrator. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Do you use these two 10 forms that I got yesterday? 11 One is entitled Initial Mental Health 12 Assessment Screening, and it is four -- three pages 13 long and dated January 21, '05. 14 MR. CLAYTON: I think that is the correct 15 form, yes, sir. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And you mentioned 17 suicide risk assessment; is that -- is it this one 18 page that's dated or last revised on 10/15/07? 19 MR. CLAYTON: Yes. That's an expanded suicide 20 risk. We do a suicide risk regardless of that 21 form. But we also add that as an added level of 22 questioning. 23 MR. MCFARLAND: I see. So if they come -- if 24 a new admittee is referred to your office, both of 25 these forms are filled out in their entirety; is 251 1 that right? 2 MR. CLAYTON: Typically speaking, yes. 3 If someone is just in the general population 4 area, we would just do the one, because it does 5 have a suicide risk assessment, as well. If 6 someone has been identified as having, possibly, 7 greater risk potential, we want to do that extra 8 layer. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: I see. So you'll fill out the 10 three-pager -- 11 MR. CLAYTON: Yes, sir. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: -- which includes Section V, 13 Suicidal Thoughts and Behavioral History. And if 14 Questions 19 through 23, in the judgment of your 15 staff, indicate some risk of suicide, then you're 16 going to use the second one-page form; is that 17 right? 18 MR. CLAYTON: That's correct, sir. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Now, where in -- where 20 in your -- let me back up. 21 Do you consider it important to your work to 22 know whether an inmate has been sexually assaulted 23 or committed a sexual assault in his or her past? 24 MR. CLAYTON: Absolutely yes. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: Why is that? 252 1 MR. CLAYTON: Well, first of all, we know that 2 the history is often a good indicator of what the 3 future will be. We know that folks that have been 4 victimized in the past, potentially, have a greater 5 risk of being victimized, as well. 6 We also know that that goes a step further. A 7 lot of people who began as victims along the way 8 transitioned to perpetrators. So we think it's 9 important to monitor and to assess, very carefully, 10 both for their own safety as well as for the safety 11 of a large facility. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Have you ever told that to the 13 staff at the jail? 14 MR. CLAYTON: To our staff? 15 We have continuous meetings about this. We 16 have our own staff, along with that, we also have 17 advanced -- (Inaudible) -- students from the 18 Florida Institute of Technology, who sort of -- 19 practical -- advance -- one of the things which we 20 stress constantly, you know, being very, very 21 vigilant about the assessments and... 22 MR. MCFARLAND: When's the last time that your 23 office, if at all, trained line officers in what 24 you just described, namely the effect on future 25 behavior of a past sexual assault or sexual 253 1 predation? 2 MR. CLAYTON: We conduct a mandatory annual 3 training each year for all staff. We have not 4 stressed as much, we have not broken it down quite 5 as much. 6 We do speak about the referral process to 7 mental health, including things such as sexual and 8 sexual risk potential, you know, victimization risk 9 and the like. 10 But I certainly -- one of things, as we have 11 been here -- one of the things which I have been 12 planning that we would do is to have a much larger 13 section included in our future training. 14 Because we do provide each year our -- our 15 facility is very big on training, and every single 16 staff has to go through mental health training 17 every single year, not to include -- of course, you 18 may've heard and talked -- mentioned about the DMS 19 process. 20 Every single policy is on computer, and every 21 single staff is required to be familiar with each 22 of these policies, including the PREA policies, 23 including, you know, policies that have to do with 24 safety of the inmates and the like. 25 And that is a requirement that supervisors 254 1 have to ensure that each one under their 2 responsibility, you know, has read those and 3 understood them. 4 MS. ELLIS: The question about your training 5 regarding sexual assault and victimization, when an 6 inmate reports sexual abuse, then you are called. 7 MR. CLAYTON: Yes, ma'am. 8 MS. ELLIS: So then you are the central area 9 or the responsible party in terms of victim 10 response. 11 MR. CLAYTON: We play an essential role, very 12 often, on things that are going on concurrently. 13 And as was -- as was testified to earlier on, the 14 victims and the special units -- and they're 15 called, the deputy is called. 16 And very often when we come aboard -- because 17 within our policy we have a lot of -- a lot of 18 things which we do; one of the things is that we 19 have an on-call policy. 20 And there are two instances in which we have 21 mental health being called, you know, invariably 22 whenever this happens; one is a suicide -- suicide 23 attempt or actual suicide or an incident of sexual 24 victimization, you know, we are called about those. 25 So that is standard practice. And I don't know if 255 1 I answered your question. 2 MS. ELLIS: And when you are called to then 3 respond to the needs of the victim, what do you do? 4 MR. CLAYTON: Well, we do -- first we assess. 5 And let me just expand that somewhat, because that 6 is -- that's our intervention role. We're 7 assessing -- intervention role (sic). 8 But we also play, I think, an equally role in 9 prevention, which I will expand on later on. You 10 may have questions to that. 11 But at that level we want to, first of all, 12 assess what's going on with this person, assess 13 their -- their mental status. Because in cases 14 where there is a situation like this, we know that 15 a person's mental status will be affected. 16 It's something, you know, and has taken place 17 (sic). So we want to assess how they're doing. We 18 want to assess -- and what -- what actually is 19 going on with them. 20 And, of course, we -- we are very careful, 21 considering that we're not trained investigators. 22 And we are very careful to kind of walk a very thin 23 line, being more concerned about the mental 24 reaction, the emotional reaction to what is going 25 on. 256 1 And, obviously, given the setting in which we 2 work, there is -- and there is an element of 3 credibility that -- that comes in, not that it 4 takes away anything at all from the -- from the 5 emotional reaction, but certainly there is -- 6 there's that element that also -- you know, that 7 also comes into your assessment. 8 We want to see whether or not this person's 9 housing, given what we have been told and given the 10 emotional reaction which we're assessing, whether 11 this housing continues to be appropriate. 12 Now, there's never a question, when there's a 13 perpetrator that's alleged, immediately that people 14 person will be moved and will be placed in a place 15 where they cannot do damage to anyone while the 16 process becomes investigated. 17 But we also have to be very concerned about 18 the alleged victim, you know, concerning -- because 19 we -- we don't want -- if there has been a case of 20 victimization, we do not want to re-victimize the 21 individual by putting them in a situation that 22 makes it more difficult. 23 MR. MCFARLAND: Are you also, then, 24 responsible for the ongoing response to the 25 emotional needs of the victim? 257 1 MR. CLAYTON: Yes. As a matter fact, in two 2 case which you spoke about earlier today, we are 3 very familiar with them and have had extensive 4 contact with both of those individuals. 5 As a matter of fact, I -- I checked and saw 6 13 -- you know, had -- you know, I had the records 7 put in, so that we have 13 contacts with one of 8 those individuals. 9 And for the other one, I can tell you that 10 person's -- and we have with scores, literally, 11 scores of contact with -- of contacts with that 12 individual. So I can speak to both of those 13 situations, you know, with some degree of 14 confidence. 15 MS. ELLIS: Okay. I also want to follow-up, 16 again, on the training aspects. So, then, you 17 provide training to the staff at the institution 18 regarding victimization and sexual assault? 19 MR. CLAYTON: We do not do that to the extent, 20 as I said, that we -- we -- we pass over that in 21 terms of referrals to mental health. 22 In terms of going into the depth that I 23 think -- I think that we should be going, we intend 24 to implement, to make that a lot more -- more 25 intensive, speaking to answering some of the 258 1 questions that Mr. McFarland asked, if we did 2 training. 3 MS. ELLIS: So you see the importance, then, 4 of talking about the trauma associated with violent 5 acts? 6 MR. CLAYTON: Absolutely. 7 MS. ELLIS: And that staff would need to be 8 well-versed and trained in terms of not only 9 recognizing it but -- but also working to prevent 10 those kinds of events from occurring? 11 MR. CLAYTON: Certainly. If I can put a 12 little commentary here, would that be appropriate, 13 at a point -- will I have a point -- will there be 14 some point where I can make a statement? 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Go right ahead. 16 MR. CLAYTON: You know, and it's -- it's our 17 desire and our intent to not just be cooperative 18 but to be transparent and straightforward in our 19 response. 20 If I could just put a slight asterisk with all 21 of this. And I have been at this facility for the 22 past four years and have brought experience from 23 other facilities. 24 And you have an added history, you have 25 experience or history, then I do believe earlier 259 1 testimony was given to the fact that so many folks 2 appear to be very surprised by the findings that 3 are here, because there -- a lot of times when you 4 got processes in place to prevent certain things 5 from happening, when the reality, as interpreted by 6 all this appears be same, it is quite a shock. 7 You know, within the sheriff's office, within 8 the system in which we work, there is a process 9 that has been in place even before we have started 10 taking these actual specific steps to -- to 11 implement specific details to strengthen this 12 particular law. 13 You know, there's a very vigorous vetting and 14 employment process that involves tremendous 15 background checks, polygraphs and psychological 16 testing. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: That is all of your 18 correctional officers? 19 MR. CLAYTON: Yes, sir. It's a very, very, 20 vigorous process. 21 Then beyond that, of course, there -- here is 22 the required training that the officers -- the 23 officers have to be through. And there is the 24 continued mandatory annual training, training 25 that's provided not just by mental health but -- 260 1 you know, but continued training to keep folks 2 aware of what's happening. 3 And I must say, you know, without any 4 reservations, that in terms of the commitment to 5 doing a job well, I have no qualms in my mind, 6 after having worked at many other facilities, that 7 that commitment is totally there. 8 And I say that simply because, as we go 9 through this, my administration, the administration 10 that I work for, has demonstrated transparency. 11 And we do that. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 13 MR. CLAYTON: I think that sometimes there may 14 be a little -- a little question as to whether or 15 not the process -- because I will tell you that in 16 every jail that I've worked, anyone that knows the 17 system understands that until you can find one 18 officer to watch every single inmate 24 hours a 19 day, you cannot guarantee -- inmates are very clear 20 (sic), they're brilliant, they can find ways, so we 21 try to plug gaps as far as -- just as fast as we 22 can. 23 But I do believe that the process that we 24 have, the prepping the -- the -- you know, the -- 25 the training, you know, the ongoing -- 261 1 MR. MCFARLAND: The training that you're going 2 to improve? 3 MR. CLAYTON: Well, the training is good right 4 now, and it's constantly being improved. And I 5 just want to -- 6 MR. MCFARLAND: I need to interrupt, because 7 we're running short of time, Mr. Clayton, but I 8 think we catch your drift. 9 MS. ELLIS: Yes. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Let me ask you, on the 11 attempted suicide, what -- do you know what, if 12 anything, was done after that attempted suicide 13 other than what appears in the two documents that 14 we were given, 4291 and 4339? 15 MR. CLAYTON: Yes. This person was seen by 16 mental health on many occasions, was also seen by 17 the psychiatrist and was actually placed on 18 medication that we don't normally place our inmates 19 on, but something -- you know, a tranquilizer, a 20 mild tranquilizer. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Did anybody look back at her 22 previous allegation of sexual assault and consider 23 reopening that investigation? 24 MR. CLAYTON: I spoke with her, as well as 25 several other members of our staff. And in our 262 1 discussions with her -- am I -- how much can I 2 share about this situation? 3 Because there's a context to each situation. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you have a -- do you 5 understand your obligation to -- if a criminal act 6 has occurred, you have a duty to report? 7 MR. CLAYTON: Yes, absolutely. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Then we're talking -- 9 we're talking about an alleged criminal act. 10 MR. CLAYTON: Right. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: And, if need be, you can -- we 12 can mark this part of the transcript, but you 13 need -- we'd appreciate it if you'd be as 14 forthcoming and transparent as you said you'd like 15 to be. 16 MR. CLAYTON: Right. In our discussions with 17 this individual, after the initial -- you know, 18 after the initial alleged act -- 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Before her suicide attempt? 20 MR. CLAYTON: Right, and beyond; her greater 21 concerns were about being released. 22 She had a -- it might be interesting to note 23 that three days before this alleged act happened, 24 there is an entry in the record where she was asked 25 by one of the officers to stop massaging another 263 1 inmate. And, actually, some statement was made 2 about, you know, the nature of that and -- 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Where would we find that 4 report? 5 MR. CLAYTON: It's in -- it's in the contact 6 card. It's in the contact card. It's in the 7 contact area, on the 6th, I think, of October. 8 But she was engaging in a behavior, 9 regardless. And she -- she was the mother type. 10 She was more the mother type. She was in her 11 fifties and -- and sometimes the 12 sociological explanation of that, which I won't go 13 into right now, but often it -- it appears as 14 though sometimes, certain behaviors become 15 misinterpreted in certain settings or taken beyond 16 and -- but her great concern -- her great thing was 17 getting out and doing whatever was possible to get 18 out. There was some family issues that we are very 19 much aware of. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. If -- Mr. Clayton, if 21 you did some extra homework on this nurse or this 22 individual, did you also look into whether she had 23 complained of vaginal bleeding? 24 MR. CLAYTON: No, I did not. I personally -- 25 another member of my staff was the person that 264 1 responded, you know, initially, yes. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Is it -- Mr. Bourque, is Nurse 3 Betty May Matthews under your responsibility? 4 MR. BOURQUE: She is no longer with us. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: I see. 6 MR. BOURQUE: At the time, she was a nurse in 7 the medical facility, though, yes. 8 MS. ELLIS: Do you have any information 9 regarding her situation, into that inmate's 10 situation? 11 MR. BOURQUE: At the time? 12 MS. ELLIS: Yes. 13 MR. BOURQUE: All I had was -- 14 MS. ELLIS: Can you shed any light on that for 15 us? 16 MR. BOURQUE: I do have a redacted medical 17 chart that has some information that may be 18 pertinent. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Is there any informa- -- 20 MR. BOURQUE: I don't have any personal 21 knowledge of the case, though. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Does her redacted medical 23 information indicate that she ever came to any 24 medical provide- -- professional and said anything 25 about a sexual assault or vaginal bleeding or 265 1 things of that nature? 2 MR. BOURQUE: Yes. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: And what was the date that 4 that appears? 5 MR. BOURQUE: Let's see. Looks like 6 November 11th, it appears to be -- I'm sorry -- 7 October 11th. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: That's the same date as the 9 incident report of 3768 that we talked about 10 earlier. 11 MR. BOURQUE: That would be the same day that 12 she was transferred to the hospital for evaluation. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. And does -- is there 14 anything that indicates that they confirmed vaginal 15 bleeding? 16 MR. BOURQUE: At the hospital, I do not have a 17 confirmation of any bleeding from -- 18 MR. MCFARLAND: What about your nurse, 19 Matthews, does she say she confirmed vaginal 20 bleeding or just the -- was it just a complaint 21 that was made by the victim? 22 MR. BOURQUE: It was a complaint. 23 Let me check one other place here. Okay. On 24 10/16, that was after the fact, she denied any 25 problem on 10/16. That was when she had her health 266 1 assessment completed. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: I'm sorry. I couldn't hear 3 that. 4 MR. BOURQUE: On October 16th, that was just 5 after she'd gone -- at that point her health 6 assessment was completed, and at that point she 7 denied any genital lesions, discharge or bleeding 8 at that time. But let me look prior to that. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Did she ever retract, you 10 know, the fact that -- 11 MR. BOURQUE: Not that would be documented in 12 my medical chart, no. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 14 MS. ELLIS: So she's referring, at that time, 15 to her current situation -- 16 MR. BOURQUE: Right. 17 MS. ELLIS: At the time of the exam on the 18 16th. 19 MR. BOURQUE: On the 16th. 20 MS. ELLIS: Not in any way denying her 21 previous report. 22 MR. BOURQUE: Correct. At that time it could 23 have simply resolved at that point. I do not see 24 any mention on September 26th. 25 The only thing that's similar, at her 267 1 screening, she did mention that she had gone 2 through menopause. So there should not have been 3 any bleeding that could've been correlated with 4 that. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: The incident was reported to 6 have occurred on September 26, according to Agent 7 Reynolds in his investigation on Page 2. 8 MR. BOURQUE: September 26, according to my 9 medical chart, is also the same date that she 10 would've come into the facility. This would've 11 been completed at the time of processing and 12 booking. 13 And there were no medical complaints at that 14 time given to the EMT that did the intake 15 screening. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Mr. Clayton, given what you 17 know about this case and given what you testified 18 to earlier about the psychological impact of sexual 19 assault on an inmate, would you like to see, in the 20 future -- do you think it would be a good idea 21 to -- in the event of at least attempted 22 suicides -- to review -- do a comprehensive review 23 of the inmate's file and see if there have been any 24 incidents or allegations of sexual assault? 25 MR. CLAYTON: That's always a good based on 268 1 the incident yeah. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: And, indeed, if that had been 3 done here she might not've tried to hang herself a 4 month later. 5 MR. CLAYTON: The details around that, again, 6 are contextual. I spoke with her following that, 7 and there was -- supposedly, she was in the room 8 and her -- and her roommates -- it was right in the 9 middle of the day -- and the roommates -- or it 10 was -- it was during the daylight hours. 11 And the roommates came out and said that she 12 was trying to do that. But I don't know that we 13 actually saw her do that. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 15 MR. CLAYTON: And from my discussions with her 16 later on, because -- used -- and there was some 17 mention made about her not having underwear during 18 the period that you -- on a watch. We can't do 19 that because we've had people try to use that to 20 hurt themselves. 21 But she did indicated over and over again that 22 she had had no intent of hurting herself, she 23 wanted to go home. And she had a six-month 24 sentence. She was having a difficult time being 25 away from her husband and, you know, a lot of 269 1 things were going on into -- 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 3 MR. CLAYTON: So that was -- not to be -- not 4 to say that there are no severe problems, but, you 5 know, with correctional, you know, and -- and care, 6 you know, and in general. 7 But I guess what I'm saying is that, in these 8 particular cases -- these two cases, which I can 9 speak to with some authority, I -- I'd hoped that 10 we don't have cases that may not bear the merits of 11 close scrutiny, you know, becoming the phase (sic) 12 of a problem that we really truly have to deal 13 with. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Mr. Clayton, do you have any 15 records about any of your personnel interviewing 16 the individual who was the alleged perpetrator in 17 1336, we spoke about this morning? 18 MR. CLAYTON: The male? 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 20 MR. CLAYTON: I don't have records. I have 21 not reviewed records of the alleged -- interview 22 with the alleged perpetrator. But I do know 23 extensively about the alleged victim. I can speak 24 to that, yes. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: What do you know of the 270 1 victim? 2 MR. CLAYTON: Well, the victim is someone 3 that possibly a household name within the facility. 4 You know, and this is an individual who is -- was 5 very, very, very, very articulate, able to -- to 6 write things very -- as a matter fact, one of the 7 ways that he got commissary, which he himself has 8 admitted, was by writing briefs for all the 9 inmates, among other things. 10 I just told Cmdr. Jeter this morning that she, 11 at one point -- I received reports that he had came 12 -- he had claimed that he was untouchable because 13 she was his aunt. That person had claimed that the 14 -- to all -- (Inaudible.) 15 So it's someone that is very savvy about the 16 system and was able to utilize, you know, 17 information for personal gain. You will see that 18 he was moved from the 300 block to the 200 block, 19 which is where this was -- this was allegedly -- 20 this claim was made. 21 And we had had him in the mental health 22 housing, the PC housing, for an extended period. 23 He had asked and asked and asked. We had not at 24 that point seen him as being a potential victim. 25 And he had asked us to work with him. And we 271 1 put him on a behavioral contract and had moved him 2 to a lesser restricted area, having gotten the 3 cooperation of classification, and the like, to try 4 to work with him. And it was in this area that 5 this allegation was made. 6 But we have had other allegations of all kinds 7 of things, of extortion, you know, that had been 8 made prior to. The context, I think, sometimes 9 does make a difference. 10 Just, you know, and at any point, my 11 understanding -- of course, I don't have the 12 reports there. But my understanding is that this 13 individual had asked -- had stated that he had made 14 this complaint. 15 Now, if the full records were available -- 16 this is someone who was able to be moved to another 17 facility. And he was moved at least twice. And 18 the facilities to which he went became -- would not 19 take him back. You know, they did not want him 20 because it was such a problem. 21 And the -- and the real problem -- we're 22 facing many problems, but one of the most severe 23 problems that we face is managing behavior issues, 24 you know, balancing -- balancing the risk of -- the 25 risk of sexual victimization against balancing 272 1 and -- balancing the need to manage individuals 2 that come in with -- with a history of strong 3 antisocial personality traits and trying not to -- 4 not to get lost in the forest, trying to make sure 5 that we see the trees. 6 The process has to maintain its integrity, 7 meaning -- and what I mean is this: We do have to 8 look at all the allegations that come to us, but at 9 the same time we have to ensure that -- in looking 10 at the allegations that come to us -- that we're 11 balancing them in a way that it does not appear 12 that one person is able now to take advantage and 13 victimize another. 14 If I can give you just a quick example -- 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, all right. Is this an 16 example of an inmate that you want to give us? 17 MR. CLAYTON: Well, I was going to give you 18 an, you know, an example from some suicide risks 19 and, you know -- because I heard a lot of questions 20 being asked about what's the -- we have a 21 situation. 22 If someone says that they have been -- that 23 they know of someone's planning to kill themselves, 24 we immediately put this person on watch. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 273 1 MR. CLAYTON: We went through a situation 2 where we found that we were getting a lot of calls 3 coming in, roommates reporting, getting calls from 4 outside people calling, "This person wants to kill 5 themselves." 6 And we responded to that matter -- 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 8 MR. CLAYTON: -- until we found that people 9 were using that to get others put on this 10 particular type of watch for some kind of other 11 reason. 12 So we do have to -- you know, we do have to be 13 careful, you know, that we don't victimize someone. 14 You know, we do have to have a credibility factor. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. I got -- Mr. Clayton, 16 which inmates, in your professional opinion, are 17 most likely to become victims of sexual assault in 18 this facility? 19 MR. CLAYTON: Individuals who are new to the 20 system, first time in jail, individuals who may be 21 distinctly different from others by their -- by 22 their facial features, by their bodily, you know, 23 demeanor, the way they handle themselves, 24 individuals that don't have confidence, individuals 25 who seem to come from a different background and 274 1 those who don't seem to have street smarts, those 2 who are mentally ill, you know, those who may be 3 developmentally delayed. 4 You know, these individuals do fit that 5 profile, we think. And we try to -- that's where 6 the adaptation becomes very important when we see 7 someone. 8 Very often we will place someone in an open 9 bay area simply until we can get a chance to better 10 assist them and also to try to equip them with 11 skills to make them less vulnerable. 12 MS. ELLIS: How do you equip them with those 13 skills? 14 MR. CLAYTON: We speak to them when we orient 15 them. We tell them what to expect and assist. And 16 we try to -- we try to help them to understand that 17 in this system you don't always know who the other 18 person is. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: And when do you -- when do you 20 give this training and to whom? 21 MR. CLAYTON: We're doing this as we're doing 22 our assessments. It's -- we consider the 23 assessments to be the first -- 24 MR. MCFARLAND: Namely this, the three-page 25 document of 1/21/05? 275 1 MR. CLAYTON: Yes, sir. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: And do you expect -- and 3 you're saying that you expect your staff to not 4 only be filling this out but also to be instructing 5 the inmate on how to survive in the system; is that 6 what you're saying? 7 MR. CLAYTON: I tell my staff that the most 8 important contact is that first contact. You know, 9 you're -- you're getting an assessment that will 10 set the stage for what follows in the -- if you 11 have to take extra time, then do that. 12 Because that's going to set the tenor for what 13 happens. You can provide education, you can 14 provide -- first you want to know, but then you 15 have to give something back. 16 And if we believe that this person is not -- 17 is not in a position where they're going to be 18 okay, we will house them in mental health housing 19 on a transient status until we feel more 20 comfortable. 21 MS. ELLIS: Everyone gets this discussion when 22 they get in -- 23 MR. CLAYTON: No, not everyone. 24 MS. ELLIS: -- regardless of whether you make 25 a determination that they may be vulnerable -- 276 1 MR. CLAYTON: Not every one. 2 MS. ELLIS: -- victimizations? 3 MR. CLAYTON: No, not everyone. Our -- our 4 assessment -- and we -- at this point, we have 5 tried to upgrade the level of our staffing. Our 6 staff are licensed folks. 7 We have currently three licensed mental health 8 specialists, a nurse specialist, a case manager who 9 has a background in social work, and we -- we do 10 stress this. 11 You're assessing to see what the needs are; 12 and depending on need, you will deliver the 13 service. And if you have to extend it, then you 14 extend it. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, do you have a 16 psychiatrist on -- on -- 17 MR. CLAYTON: We certainly do. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: -- on staff full-time? 19 MR. CLAYTON: Well, he's not full-time, but -- 20 but he's there two days a week. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 22 MR. CLAYTON: And we have a great relationship 23 with him. 24 MR. MCFARLAND: Great. 25 And your background is you -- you have 277 1 completed your -- the coursework for your Ph.D in 2 this area? 3 MR. CLAYTON: I have a -- 4 MR. MCFARLAND: -- public health. 5 MR. CLAYTON: I completed master's degrees in 6 social work as well as in counseling, social 7 counseling. And I completed all the coursework for 8 a doctorate in -- in many -- in public health with 9 an emphasis in public mental health services. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Where on this form does your 11 staff elicit information about what they think is 12 -- would be relevant to them, knowing they should 13 start talking about how to record sexual assault, 14 how to defend themselves? 15 You know, you've mentioned a number of 16 factors, and I'm not sure I see those factors, you 17 know, charted anywhere so that there is some 18 systematic way that your staff are supposed to 19 think, well, let's see, they have this -- these 20 physical attributes, they have this, you know, this 21 person has this, you know, difference in stature or 22 this person seems to not -- seems to be naive. I 23 know this is the first incarceration -- bingo -- 24 that's five out of -- that's five checks. I need 25 to give them a briefing, because they might be at 278 1 higher risk for being a sexual assault victim. 2 I don't -- I'm not seeing anything on that 3 screening. How do we -- how do you 4 systematize this, or do you; is it just kind of 5 subjective or what? 6 MR. CLAYTON: We do -- this -- this is a 7 guide. We have a narrative form in which the areas 8 that need to be expanded on, you know, that's done. 9 We don't have technicians who we can give a 10 template that you fill out. You know, certainly, 11 there are -- there are guides of the important 12 elements that need to be looked at. And then you 13 elaborate on those. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: You do not have a risk 15 assessment instrument that assesses the risk of 16 someone being a victim or a perpetrator of sexual 17 assault? 18 MR. CLAYTON: No, we do not. And I'm a 19 little -- I'm -- you know, I'm a little nervous 20 about that, because what that does -- it does a 21 couple of things. 22 I do not want my staff to be exploring these 23 elements. I want them to be knowledgeable about 24 what these factors are. I want them to be 25 concerned and aware at all times. 279 1 But I think that a lot of times when you have 2 a numerical value, that difference between a seven 3 and an eight, becomes kind of arbitrary, and you 4 run the risk then of, you know, that numerical 5 value, that the scale that you use, a lot of times 6 it takes away from the judgment. 7 And so, it is done, but I don't know that we 8 have an instrument that gives them a rating scale. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Mr. Clayton, do you have 10 anything in writing that goes with this screening 11 by which your staff knows how to fill this out, the 12 kinds of questions that may not actually be asked 13 for in this document but the kind of things that 14 you think are relevant to being a sexual assault 15 victim or predator? 16 Is there any other document we haven't seen 17 that goes with this and trains them in, these are 18 the red flags, these are the -- these are the 19 things to look for? 20 MR. CLAYTON: I don't know that this might be 21 helpful. I don't know if you have -- (Inaudible) 22 -- to this. Yeah, that -- this may be -- I don't 23 know if this would -- 24 MR. MCFARLAND: Why don't you just 25 describe what -- what's the name of it? 280 1 MR. CLAYTON: Well, it's just -- it's a mental 2 health -- (Inaudible) -- of the prison. You may 3 have that copy. If I may -- and it simply looks at 4 the rule (sic). 5 And this has been submitted to our staff. You 6 know, it looks at our assessment function. It 7 looks at our -- it looks at potential sexual 8 aggressors in the jail setting. It looks at our 9 planning function in conjunction. 10 And this must be -- I must emphasize this. 11 What we do as a unit, it's not independent, it's 12 done in conjunction with the rest of the jail. 13 We work very closely with classification. We 14 work very closely with the security, you know, with 15 the housing areas. We work extremely closely with 16 booking. There is a document, and that includes 17 the H protocol, that looks at issues 18 of vulnerability. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: When was this document -- 20 there's no date on the first page. 21 MR. CLAYTON: Right. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: But the second page has 23 yesterday's date on it. 24 MR. CLAYTON: Right. I printed this off 25 yesterday. 281 1 MR. MCFARLAND: You printed it off? 2 MR. CLAYTON: Yes. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: When was this memorandum 4 distributed and -- 5 MR. CLAYTON: This particular one, my first 6 thing along this line that I did was back in the 7 2006. This was modified maybe -- maybe June or 8 July, very recently. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Of '08? 10 MR. CLAYTON: Of '08, yes. It was modified 11 just to make it a little bit more systematic. 12 But -- but it does include things that we have been 13 looking at, you know, throughout, you know, over 14 times. It's just a little bit more organized here. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: And do you hand this out to 16 your staff since last June? 17 MR. CLAYTON: This June our staff had this, 18 yes. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Since June of '08? 20 MR. CLAYTON: Our staff all have a copy of 21 this. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. But -- 23 MR. CLAYTON: And -- and we discuss this in 24 staff meetings with doing this and over time, so -- 25 and there's -- 282 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you have the 19 -- do you 2 have the 2006 version of this? 3 MR. CLAYTON: It was very -- it was just a 4 kind of a -- it was just a kind of a -- the 5 highlights, you know, things to look for, you know, 6 factors that may be at risk and stuff like that. 7 It was just -- it -- it was more of a kind of 8 a -- (Inaudible) -- you know, kind of a -- these 9 are the things that we want to be -- to continue to 10 be aware of. And we did that in conjunction 11 with -- like -- looking at the PREA act itself. We 12 actually -- 13 MR. MCFARLAND: And you updated this in -- 14 MR. CLAYTON: Yeah. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: -- updated this in June after 16 the -- 17 MR. CLAYTON: Yes. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: -- results of the BJS study 19 came out? 20 MR. CLAYTON: Yes. We wanted to make it a lot 21 more organized so that we had -- yes, sir. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: And I notice on Page 1 that it 23 says, "As part of each inmate assessment that is 24 conducted, mental health staff makes concurrent 25 assessments of the relative risk that each inmate 283 1 interviewed poses for risk of sexual 2 victimization." 3 How does -- how does the mental health staff 4 make that concurrent assessment? 5 Is there any other document, other than the 6 three-page marigold-colored sheet that they are 7 currently using or used last year to do that 8 concurrent assessment? 9 MR. CLAYTON: It's particular (sic) judgment 10 based on the factors which we spoke about earlier 11 on that we considered to be risk factors. 12 The greater these risk factors exist in 13 combination, the greater the combination, you know, 14 of these factors, the greater will be -- you know, 15 will be the decision (sic). 16 MR. MCFARLAND: But you don't like the idea of 17 a point system. You just leave it up to the 18 professional judgment of each of your staff. 19 MR. CLAYTON: Don't like the idea of a point 20 system. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And you know those 22 kinds of risk assessment tools -- 23 MR. CLAYTON: Yes. 24 MR. MCFARLAND: -- instruments do exist? 25 MR. CLAYTON: Yes, yes. 284 1 But the risk versus, you know, the benefit, 2 you know, it's -- it's -- that's not to -- to say 3 that we would not look at it further, but just the 4 principle, again, the thing that has to be 5 considered, is this: 6 Once that determination is made there are 7 certain -- first of all, initially, a lot of times 8 the conclusions are based on a progressive process. 9 Sometimes education can be -- can 10 reduce vulnerability. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 12 MR. CLAYTON: You know, sometimes. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah, yeah, I understand. 14 But if I understand your concern, Mr. Clayton, 15 you're concerned with a scoring assessment, is 16 that there might -- I think you used the example, 17 "Well, there would be -- you know, it -- the cutoff 18 might be at seven and this, you know, or eight, and 19 this person just came up to seven of the factors, 20 and so we wouldn't -- we wouldn't catch that 21 individual or we wouldn't tag that individual." 22 Was that your earlier testimony? 23 MR. CLAYTON: That's part of it. But there's 24 also the -- 25 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, okay. 285 1 MR. CLAYTON: Sorry. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. Just to follow-up 3 on that; then if that's your concern, wouldn't it 4 make sense just to lower the threshold a couple of 5 points and just say, you know, "We're going to err 6 on safety and we're going to -- rather than the 7 threshold for, you know, for special treatment or 8 tagging as a sexual predator being eight, we're 9 going to make it six"? 10 What's the problem with that? 11 MR. CLAYTON: That -- if that was the only 12 concern, then I can see that being a good answer; 13 however, and there's also the element of having a 14 team that does this. 15 And there's -- there's still going to be 16 subjectivity. One person's seven, no matter how 17 well the training is, may be another person's six. 18 So there again, you know, you have that, you know, 19 and you -- and -- and, again, what will happen is 20 that you want to have a system that's effective as 21 well as efficient. 22 Now, once we make that determination, you have 23 certain decision that you have to make, housing. 24 Where do we house this person. A lot of times we 25 have to put them in PC. We don't have a choice. 286 1 We may have to put them in some areas where they 2 may not have a full range of privileges, simply for 3 their safety. 4 But if you have a lot of false positives, if 5 you have an inordinate amount of false positives, 6 the question again becomes, you know, how efficient 7 and how much are you helping this individual. So 8 it's a balancing act of trying to find what works 9 best. And we're working towards that. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: And, Mr. Clayton, your 11 facility is rated with 1702? 12 MS. ELLIS: One. 13 MR. CLAYTON: One. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: 1701. So it's rated for 1701 15 inmates, right? 16 MR. CLAYTON: Yes. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: And you have about 1,970 right 18 now? 19 MR. CLAYTON: Yes. 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So right now it's 21 overcrowded. It's not nearly as overcrowded as it 22 was a year ago. Thanks to Sheriff Parker. 23 But let me ask you this. If you're rated 24 capacity for 2,100 beds, and you're at 1,980 right 25 now, would you lower the risk assessment for 287 1 tagging if you had more beds? 2 I'm hearing you say, "Well, it's not just 3 enough that, you know, that we lower the threshold, 4 but if we lower the threshold, there's -- it's -- 5 we're going to have to put more people in more 6 places of safekeeping, and we don't have that." 7 What if you had more -- what if your bond 8 holders out there, your electors, would actually 9 pass a bond election and give you the space that 10 you need, would that affect your judgment on 11 what -- 12 MR. CLAYTON: You're always happy for extra 13 space (sic). 14 In terms of judgment, now, what I will say is 15 that I think that what we've done -- what the 16 administration's done -- over the years is 17 consistent with enhancing safety. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: There's no question about 19 that. 20 MR. CLAYTON: -- very consistently we're 21 deliberately designed -- we're deliberately 22 designed with the intent to enhance the safety 23 factor. 24 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 25 MR. CLAYTON: So -- so, ultimately, if we had 288 1 that, certainly. Just as we've taken these steps, 2 certainly, we would continue to take these steps. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Great. 4 MR. CLAYTON: That's our goal. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Let me ask you what inmates 6 are like -- what's the profile of a likely victim 7 of staff-on-inmate sexual assault? 8 And you already told me about some of the 9 things about an inmate who might be a victim of 10 inmate-on-inmate assault. Is the profile the same 11 or different for a person who's most likely to be 12 victimized by staff in a sexual way? 13 MR. CLAYTON: Let me underscore, first of all, 14 by saying that I'm -- in my four years I've never 15 had any of my staff or the interns that I supervise 16 tell me that they have had a report from an 17 inmate -- we get a lot of reports -- about -- about 18 an inmate -- staff-and-inmate type of -- sort of -- 19 or impropriety. 20 However, I would think that the kind of inmate 21 that would be at risk for that would be, first of 22 all, an inmate that is the poor-me type. 23 You know, a lot of times inmates have got real 24 sad story (sic). And in some ways, very often it 25 is something that I've found that makes us know 289 1 what's happening. But they will be the person that 2 needs to be rescued. 3 And a lot of times, if you have a staff that 4 needs to have someone to say -- you know, a lot of 5 times the lines can become very blurred. 6 And so I think that that kind of person -- I 7 -- I also think that someone who's very confident, 8 someone who's very confident, very savvy, very 9 street smart, you know, because in my experience -- 10 and I'm drawing my experience from many years 11 across various facilities -- in my experience, on 12 the occasions when I have seen inmate and staff 13 sexual improprieties, typically speaking, there has 14 been some degree of -- of the individual, the 15 inmate -- typically speaking, my experience has 16 been that this person has been drawn in as well. 17 I've seen some degree, even though it's always 18 wrong, but I've seen some degree of actual -- the 19 word is -- I'm -- I'm having a senior moment right 20 here. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Manipulation? 22 MR. CLAYTON: Manipulation, certainly, 23 manipulation, pulling someone -- get -- pulling 24 someone in. 25 I think that the staff that's most at risk is 290 1 the staff that's vulnerable, the staff that has 2 insecurities, the staff that's having problems at 3 home, the staff that's chronically fatigued, you 4 know, and say there's a symbiotic type of 5 relationship that develops over time. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Symbiotic? 7 MR. CLAYTON: Symbiotic I would say. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. Well, that's very 9 helpful. 10 When was -- you mentioned that you've run 11 across those sorts of inappropriate relationships. 12 When was the last time you heard or ran into any 13 kind of staff or -- on inmate sexuality at this -- 14 at your current facility? 15 MR. CLAYTON: Sex -- staff on inmate? 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 17 MR. CLAYTON: I have not run into any at this 18 facility. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Where have you run into it in 20 prior facilities? 21 MR. CLAYTON: Working in Orange County, yes. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. All right. 23 MR. CLAYTON: Right. I worked in Orange 24 County previously. I've also worked in Seminole 25 County. 291 1 MR. MCFARLAND: What inmates are most likely 2 to be perpetrators of inmate-on-inmate sexual 3 assault, not staff-on-inmate but -- obviously -- 4 but inmate-on-inmate; what's the profile for them? 5 MR. CLAYTON: That profile that has expanded 6 over time. And I think one of the first things 7 that I look for right now is has someone been a 8 victim in the past. 9 Because so many individuals who are 10 perpetrators, in my experience in speaking with 11 them, there is some instance of their having -- 12 having been victims at some point. 13 And I also look at someone who's overly 14 aggressive. And overly aggression, I'm speaking 15 about behavioral kind of factors that may not be 16 reflected in charge. 17 But as Lt. Robertson pointed out, we are not 18 charging people for being -- for masturbating. You 19 know, we consider that to be -- to be aggressive, 20 you know -- You know, we consider it to be a form 21 of aggression and -- and a form of violating social 22 standard and mores. 23 You know, you think that that is something 24 that has to be addressed. That individual, I 25 think, can move from beyond just masturbating to -- 292 1 you know, to others -- to actually becoming -- 2 becoming physically -- and physically -- 3 MS. ELLIS: How do you investigate that? 4 How do you investigate masturbation; is that 5 something that transpires in the privacy of 6 the cell under the covers or -- 7 MR. CLAYTON: No. We found out that's not -- 8 we have some individuals who will -- who will, in 9 open areas, will come out and openly -- 10 MS. ELLIS: Oh, I see. 11 MR. CLAYTON: You know, if an officer or if 12 someone comes by, them will openly expose 13 themselves and start to masturbate. These are the 14 ones that we consider -- no, in the privacy, you 15 know, that is not something that we challenge, you 16 know, but -- 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Mr. Bourque. 18 MR. BOURQUE: Yes, sir. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: When you were the pod nurse, 20 beginning in February of last year, did you ever 21 have any inmates expose themselves to you when you 22 were distributing meds? 23 MR. BOURQUE: Specifically to me, no. 24 MR. MCFARLAND: Did you distribute meds to 25 females? 293 1 MR. BOURQUE: Not early on, but towards the 2 end of December, yes, or the end of 2007, yes. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: And that was while they were 4 still in the 100 unit? 5 MR. BOURQUE: Correct. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: And did any of them ever 7 expose themselves to you? 8 MR. BOURQUE: No. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: How many of your staff have 10 ever mentioned to you that any inmate has made a 11 sexual advance to them, either -- you know, either 12 exposure or a proposition or something of that 13 nature? 14 MR. BOURQUE: As the administrator? 15 MR. MCFARLAND: No, not -- not just in the few 16 months where you've been the administrator, but in 17 your time at this facility, how often have you ever 18 heard such a complaint or comment? 19 MR. BOURQUE: I cannot recall any instance 20 when another employee mentioned that an inmate had 21 made or another -- is that the way you're talking 22 about? 23 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 24 MR. BOURQUE: And inmate -- I can't think of 25 anything -- can't think of any of those situations. 294 1 MR. MCFARLAND: How about any instance in 2 which an inmate -- whether there was something said 3 about an inmate coming on to a -- I'm sorry -- an 4 employee, a staff member, another staff member 5 coming on to an employee -- an inmate? 6 MR. BOURQUE: No, I've never heard of a 7 situation like that in my time in the facility. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: I'm looking at the incident 9 report. It's about the only one we haven't talked 10 about, 07-002003. This is an incident dated May 29 11 of last your, so I guess you were a pod nurse at 12 that time. 13 MR. BOURQUE: May of '07, yes, I would've 14 been. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: And this is an occasion which 16 it's alleged that an inmate stated he was having 17 a -- you know, severe chest pains. 18 He ends up seeing Nurse Nicoletti and then 19 whispers an inappropriate proposition to her, and 20 this incident was written up; are you familiar with 21 this incident? 22 MR. BOURQUE: No, I'm not, sir. 23 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And there's a copy of 24 the incident report. You never heard from one of 25 your fellow nurses that this had happened? 295 1 MR. BOURQUE: Let me review the -- 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 3 MR. BOURQUE: The one you've given me, no, it 4 does not sound familiar at all. No, this incident 5 is not something familiar to me at all. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Mr. Clayton, I notice 7 on this -- if you could get the document from 8 Mr. Bourque. 9 I notice the charging history of the inmate 10 who's alleged to have made this proposition to 11 Nurse Nicoletti, and I notice there are a number of 12 offenses of a sexual nature: 13 Sexual battery against a minor, exposure of 14 sexual organ on a minor; it looks like that was for 15 the same event; five years later, failure to 16 properly register sex offender status. A year 17 later, VOP, lewd and lascivious acts on a child. 18 This person is a registered sex offender. And 19 given what you -- your expertise regarding 20 predators, and among inmates, do you think this 21 kind of a -- this kind of a admittee should be 22 tagged in any way so that he doesn't end up being 23 able to prey on other inmates or staff or -- 24 MR. CLAYTON: Hands down, yes. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: Hands down. 296 1 MR. CLAYTON: Absolutely yes. 2 MR. MCFARLAND: And how would you suggest 3 doing that? 4 MR. CLAYTON: Well, this is a -- this -- this 5 individual currently is housed alone. We don't 6 have him housed with anyone right now. 7 And that is the intent, that that will 8 continue to happen. And he -- we do have him 9 tagged. He is on our list. And we will continue 10 to follow him during -- during the stay and for any 11 recurrence. So -- 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you -- and I'll ask this of 13 Cmdr. Jeter. 14 But do you have a list or do you provide lists 15 to the commander or -- or management of folks who 16 you think really rate high on the risk assessment 17 as being a sexual predator? 18 MR. CLAYTON: The classifications supervisor 19 and I've discussed this very frequently. And look 20 -- you know, looking at these individuals -- and if 21 I may say, we do have a policy -- because, again, a 22 lot of this balancing. We have a policy that we 23 don't house individuals alone. 24 There have been two occasions when I have made 25 special requests to have -- have people housed 297 1 alone in settings outside of the acute housing -- 2 MR. MCFARLAND: And this person is -- 3 MR. CLAYTON: -- both in cases of this nature. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: And this is -- this person's 5 one of them? 6 MR. CLAYTON: We are currently housing him in 7 the acute housing unit where he can be monitored. 8 But if that was ever to be changed, you know, he 9 would be one that I would be -- that I would be 10 comfortable in asking, you know, permission 11 given -- given -- you know, given. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: So he is or is not being in 13 solitary? 14 MR. CLAYTON: He's solitary right now. He's 15 solitary. Yes, he is completely solitary. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: And by the classification 17 officer, you mean Cpl. Foster? 18 MR. CLAYTON: Cpl. Foster, yes. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. We thank you very much, 20 both of you. 21 We'll now just have the last panelists, 22 Cmdr. Jeter and Maj. Hibbs. 23 Maj. Hibbs, you're still under oath. 24 Cmdr. Jeter, would you mind raising your right 25 hand, please. 298 1 (Whereupon, COMMANDER SUSAN M. JETER having 2 been duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and 3 nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as 4 follows:) 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Thank you. 6 And, Commander, how long have you been at the 7 Brevard County Jail? 8 CMDR. JETER: Since 1986. I'm going on my 9 23rd year. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: And you've been an 11 administrator since when? 12 CMDR. JETER: 2005. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 14 CMDR. JETER: April. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: So you were the administrator 16 when the National Inmate Survey was done? 17 CMDR. JETER: Yes, sir. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. How many juveniles are 19 housed in your facility? 20 CMDR. JETER: I think there are about 28 21 right. It fluctuates. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: One girl and 27 boys? 23 CMDR. JETER: Yes, sir. 24 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And where -- in which 25 block are they housed in? 299 1 CMDR. JETER: They're in the 100 pod block 2 in Goff (Phonetic.) 3 MR. MCFARLAND: And they are physically 4 separated from adult males, right? 5 CMDR. JETER: Yes, sir. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 7 CMDR. JETER: And we also have an officer 8 posted in there with them. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. What's the difference 10 between a procedure and a directive? 11 CMDR. JETER: I'm sorry? 12 MR. MCFARLAND: What's the difference between 13 a procedure and a directive? 14 CMDR. JETER: Well, I would say a procedure 15 actually outlines how you do something; where a 16 directive dictates you on what to do and when to do 17 it. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: Gotcha. 19 What is the -- this would be for either of 20 you. What is the standard of proof for determining 21 whether disciplinary action should be taken against 22 an inmate? 23 MAJ. HIBBS: That be preponderance of the 24 evidence. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. So that's different 300 1 from the standard for referring for a criminal 2 prosecution; is that right? 3 MAJ. HIBBS: Absolutely. Has to be proof 4 beyond a reasonable doubt. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. Now, you've been good 6 enough to be here all day, and you've heard about 7 the various factual scenarios. And this may be too 8 broad of a question, but I'm just mindful of the 9 time. 10 Have any of those factual scenarios, as you've 11 listened to the evidence that was available and the 12 fact that it was cleared or found to be unfounded 13 and didn't go any farther, did any of them raise a 14 concern in your mind that, you know, if we looked 15 at it again, that probably should've been referred 16 up at least for disciplinary charges against the -- 17 one or both of the inmates, if not, maybe for 18 having a prosecutor looking at it? 19 Did any of those, frankly, raise that idea in 20 your minds? 21 MAJ. HIBBS: In my -- you want to answer? 22 CMDR. JETER: Well, actually, as listening to 23 Lt. Dodson and over the investigative portion, they 24 do refer it to the agent. So we're kind of at -- 25 basically, at their mercy to make sure there is the 301 1 evidence to file a capias; in other words, there is 2 probable cause. 3 So if you're talking about looking at that 4 process, I don't know if that's even possible. But 5 as far as the staff go, they make every effort to, 6 again, enforce that and try to pursue it as best 7 they can. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: You said "file a capias," is 9 that right? 10 CMDR. JETER: Yes, sir. That's what you have 11 to do in order to get the charges with the state 12 attorney, if I -- understanding. I'm dual sworn, 13 so that's my -- I'm almost enough to be dangerous 14 in that regard. So I've have to refer to 15 Maj. Hibbs. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Maj. Hibbs. 17 MAJ. HIBBS: I didn't hear any evidence that 18 would raise the level to a preponderance of the 19 evidence. But when you have a claim, I think you 20 are obligated to inquire, just for the safety of 21 the officer. 22 We're obligated enough to exonerate that 23 officer, as well as to try to substantiate any 24 misconduct in regard to those. I think if I had 25 to do some of those over again, looking at them, 302 1 even though I didn't see the evidence present here 2 today, I think it may require a little bit more 3 looking into. 4 MS. ELLIS: Sure. 5 MAJ. HIBBS: If that answers your question. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 7 MAJ. HIBBS: Okay. Thank you. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: And -- but none of them met 9 the preponderance of the evidence standard, from 10 what you -- just from what you saw in the incident 11 report and what you heard? 12 MAJ. HIBBS: Well, you haven't -- (Inaudible) 13 -- an officer give a statement yet, and I'm looking 14 at a -- a transcript or a written document that may 15 be preferred -- prepared by somebody else or from 16 an inmate. 17 So without all the facts, it's very hard to 18 conclude whether it even rises to the level -- 19 level of 51 percent, in regard, so -- 20 MR. MCFARLAND: Let me ask, either of you, you 21 know the instance where there were five female 22 witnesses in the -- what was the 100 pod, the 23 female pod at the time. Do you think they 24 should've been interviewed? 25 CMDR. JETER: From my recollection of the 303 1 report, I believe the agent tried to get the names 2 of the witnesses. And she declined to give the 3 names. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. She said that there 5 were -- she said the races of the -- of the five. 6 CMDR. JETER: She did. But in that cell block 7 there's probably of 25 white and 25 black. So, I 8 mean, it would be hard to determine. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: But you would expect -- just 10 going forward, you would expect those witnesses to 11 be interviewed if they were identified. 12 CMDR. JETER: Absolutely. If she -- they were 13 identified. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Even if the -- even if the 15 victim says, "I don't want to have anything to do 16 with it, I don't trust the criminal justice system, 17 I am not going to prosecute, I'm not going to 18 testify?" 19 CMDR. JETER: That's a good point. And what I 20 would say on that, if I -- if I was that agent -- 21 and it's hard to put myself in his place -- I think 22 I would've handled that a little bit differently, 23 maybe from a -- I hate to say it -- from a female 24 perspective, you know, I think we look at kinda the 25 big picture as far as how we would approach that 304 1 type of situation. 2 MAJ. HIBBS: I could add something to that, if 3 you don't mind. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes, sir. 5 MAJ. HIBBS: Just from a criminal 6 investigative standpoint, I think if you provide 7 the level of service to the public, the same as the 8 people in the jail are part of your public or part 9 of your community, if someone went into a precinct 10 in major crimes that's outside of the jail and said 11 they don't want nothing to do with this case, I 12 don't see how much investigative effort would go 13 beyond that point in trying to solve that crime, 14 when you have 50 other cases which may be crimes 15 against children, so forth, that the agent may have 16 on their desk. 17 So if they're uncooperative at that point, I 18 think the same level of service that we provide the 19 inmates in the jail should be the same level of 20 services we provide to the citizens of Brevard 21 County and the community. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Isn't it true, though, that 23 there's a huge difference, and that is that these 24 folks are locked in the same cell block with the 25 folks who might be threatening them. 305 1 MS. ELLIS: Yes. 2 CMDR. JETER: Absolutely. I think we have to 3 do what we can to protect the care of the inmate as 4 well as the staff as well as the citizens. I think 5 that's our mission. And I think that's why we're 6 here today. 7 Because we want to be able to enhance that, to 8 make sure we're doing that very well. But at the 9 same token, if that person's uncooperative -- and I 10 wasn't there, and I didn't hear their sworn 11 testimony -- I could see how that investigation 12 could go that far, where you may not interview 13 those. 14 At the same token, if she's just 15 uncooperative, there could be other valuable 16 evidence, that she could substantiate that claim, 17 being the person's mentally ill and may not be 18 cooperative, you might want to pursue that, because 19 the persons may not be competent enough to make 20 that decision for themselves. You might want to 21 take that extra step. 22 But without that information it makes it very 23 difficult for me to make that determination here 24 today. 25 MS. ELLIS: Commander, do you see fear as a 306 1 major factor sometimes in inmates reporting, a fear 2 of retaliation from staff, fear of retaliation from 3 other inmates? 4 Are you aware of the role of fear, in terms of 5 particularly victims, in reporting? 6 CMDR. JETER: What I can say, at least at the 7 Brevard County Jail, I don't see they would fear 8 retaliation from staff or officers, now, maybe 9 possible from another inmate. But, again, when 10 we're alerted, they're removed from that situation. 11 MS. ELLIS: What's the reputation of 12 your institute? 13 What's the reputation -- what's the word on 14 street about your facility? 15 CMDR. JETER: We're the best in the State of 16 Florida, maybe the United States. And we take a 17 great pride in our facility. 18 MR. MCFARLAND: What's the turnover, 19 Commander, in -- among your correctional officers 20 in the first year; how many of them don't -- are 21 they -- how many of them wash out after the first 22 year, before the first year? 23 CMDR. JETER: That's a good question. I was 24 asked that yesterday during tour. 25 In the past we had a high turnover rate. And 307 1 then since 2005 we made a really hard effort to 2 fill our vacancies and actually bring on more 3 staff. 4 As we were discussing yesterday, I think we 5 brought over 200 people on staff, sworn and 6 civilian. So now our staff is actually -- we have 7 a much lower turnover rate. 8 If I had to guess, I would say, for the first 9 year, probably less -- I was thinking I said 10 yesterday 20 percent; probably even lower than 11 that, maybe 10 percent. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: How many sworn staff do you 13 have? 14 CMDR. JETER: 330 I believe. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: And how many non-sworn? 16 CMDR. JETER: 131. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: And the count today is 18 around -- 19 CMDR. JETER: Actually, it dropped down from 20 yesterday. We were at 1970, and now it's at 1948. 21 So we -- you may be familiar with jails, but we 22 received probably 25,000 people last year and 23 released 24,000. It's a very transient population. 24 MS. ELLIS: What's the gender breakdown in 25 terms of staff? 308 1 CMDR. JETER: Actually, I can -- if you give 2 me a second, I can tell you. 3 MS. ELLIS: Sure. 4 And while you're looking for that, Major, let 5 me ask, have you ever had any homicides committed 6 in your institution? 7 MAJ. HIBBS: Not to my knowledge, not during 8 my tenure at the facility, my time in '87 (sic). 9 MR. MCFARLAND: There's never been a homicide 10 since '87 that you know of? 11 MAJ. HIBBS: That I know of, no. And I don't 12 know of any previous to that. But I wouldn't have 13 any first-hand knowledge of that. 14 CMDR. JETER: Same here. 15 I have the breakdown, if you want me to give 16 it to you. For civilian males we have 29. For 17 civilians females we have 100. For sworn males we 18 have 200 and total civilian females, we have 120, 19 roughly. Fluctuates, so -- 20 MR. MCFARLAND: You said civilian females. 21 How many sworn females do you have? 22 CMDR. JETER: Looks like 120. 23 MR. MCFARLAND: All right. Is pornography 24 allowed in your institution? 25 CMDR. JETER: No. 309 1 MR. MCFARLAND: And how would you define 2 pornography; is it defined term or do you know it 3 when you see it or what? 4 CMDR. JETER: We don't allow any magazines of 5 any type to come into the facility. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, I guess that's... 7 If there is a allegation -- well, let me ask 8 you this. Commander, how many allegations are you 9 aware of involving an allegation of -- that a staff 10 member had a romantic or sexual relationship with 11 an inmate in your facility? 12 CMDR. JETER: You mean, in my entire career? 13 MR. MCFARLAND: In your entire career at the 14 Brevard County Jail. 15 CMDR. JETER: And how many staff have had 16 issues with inmates? 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 18 CMDR. JETER: -- understanding correctly? 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Yes. 20 CMDR. JETER: Let's see. I know of -- 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Sexual issues, sexual 22 relationships or inappropriate sexual contact 23 improper -- 24 CMDR. JETER: I don't know of actual sexual 25 contact. We did have one officer that was 310 1 voyeuristic issues. And then we had a nurse that 2 had, apparently, contraband, had -- I don't know 3 how the inmate obtained pictures of her. And I 4 think that's about it. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: Pictures of her unclothed or 6 just pictures? 7 CMDR. JETER: Yes, yes. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. And when did this 9 occur? 10 CMDR. JETER: I believe the nurse was -- am I 11 about two years ago, three years -- 12 MAJ. HIBBS: I would say 2005. 13 CMDR. JETER: I'm sorry. I'm off. 14 MAJ. HIBBS: -- mean 2005-2006. 15 MR. MCFARLAND: And what happened to the 16 nurse? 17 MAJ. HIBBS: She was terminated and criminal 18 charges were sought for the introduction of 19 contraband. 20 What happened in that case was during the 21 cells -- cell shakedown, they discovered inside of 22 his mail nude photographs of the nurses working at 23 the facility. 24 We immediately banned her from the facility 25 and generated case reports and did the same 311 1 protocols that Lt. Dodson talked about earlier. So 2 I don't need to go into all those. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 4 MAJ. HIBBS: And it went up to GCU North 5 Precinct, you know, somebody outside of our 6 department that did a -- for introduction of 7 contraband. 8 There was never any evidence of any sexual 9 activity. We looked at that. We looked at the 10 sexual-activity part, whether or not they was 11 having contact or -- but there was nothing ever to 12 substantiate that, any of that stuff occurred. 13 So the only thing that we know is, by some 14 means, somehow -- whether it was through mail or 15 some other means -- she was able to get those 16 photographs in to them. He was uncooperative. 17 I believe also that he was a death-row inmate 18 at the time. But we did find out, as well, as part 19 of that investigation, she had a P. O. Box. She 20 was receiving correspondence from him, as well. 21 So being that's also a third-degree felony in 22 the State of Florida, we sought those charges. But 23 it wasn't necessarily anything substantiated of a 24 sexual nature. But there were -- 25 MR. MCFARLAND: In terms of contact. 312 1 MAJ. HIBBS: In terms of sexual activity, 2 which would be contact or sexual misconduct, yes, 3 sir. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, providing an inmate with 5 nude photos of yourself, as a staff member, that 6 would be sexual misconduct, wouldn't it? 7 MAJ. HIBBS: I think the definition of sexual 8 misconduct would be some type of union with or a 9 touching or sexual misconduct, my definition, in 10 the State of Florida, if I'm not mistaken. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Would that be -- 12 MAJ. HIBBS: -- even if it's consensual. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. Would that be 14 permissible? I mean, wouldn't that be a violation 15 of your personnel rules, though? 16 I mean, can you -- can one of your staff 17 members provide -- if you don't even allow 18 magazines in, I mean, they can provide naked 19 pictures of themselves to -- 20 MAJ. HIBBS: We took administrative action on 21 that. She was terminated on the spot. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. All right. So I gather 23 that that's a rule violation. 24 MAJ. HIBBS: Oh, that's a rule violation. But 25 sexual misconduct by the definition of criminal 313 1 statute -- 2 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh, criminally. 3 MAJ. HIBBS: Yes. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: I see. 5 When was the last time that an officer at your 6 jail was alleged to have known but failed to report 7 some kind of a sexual activity, some violation of 8 your sexual assaults? 9 CMDR. JETER: I'm not aware of any. 10 MAJ. HIBBS: I have no knowledge of such. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: And do you have rape kits 12 available at the jail? 13 CMDR. JETER: No, we don't. Anyone that 14 requires that type of examination is sent by 15 medical to the ER for that type of procedure. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: And how does -- what criteria 17 does the doctor or the medical staff use to 18 determine whether to send them to the ER? 19 CMDR. JETER: I couldn't really speak on that. 20 I could only make sure that assumption that if they 21 really suspected she'd really -- if they suspect 22 that there has been an issue that they would just 23 go ahead and refer them. 24 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you get charged for, you 25 know, for the ER visits? 314 1 CMDR. JETER: No, no. It's our duty to make 2 sure they're cared for. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: No. But I mean -- maybe 4 Mr. Bourque knows. 5 Does the Sheriff's Office get charged, 6 Mr. Bourque for -- 7 MR. BOURQUE: Sheriff's office takes up Armor, 8 and we have a contracted rate with the hospital to 9 provide those services. But Armor does receive the 10 bill for every transfer to the hospital. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: So they pass it on to you? 12 MR. BOURQUE: Correct. We receive the bill 13 for everybody that is treated at the hospital. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. 15 MS. ELLIS: Mr. Bourque, anybody on your staff 16 trained in doing sexual assault examinations? 17 MR. BOURQUE: No. That would -- we 18 intentionally do not allow that, because it would 19 violate our -- that would -- (Inaudible) -- to 20 gather any forensic, whether a -- we have a 21 medical or have (sic) -- 22 MS. ELLIS: I wasn't thinking of engaging in 23 the process but just having a real good knowledge 24 bank in terms of what it entails. 25 MR. BOURQUE: We have discussed that. But 315 1 then there is a liability factor of also having a 2 trained staff that's not acting. 3 We had discussed that, having a trained staff 4 there and then, particularly in a court of law, it 5 could be brought up that they did not act in that 6 function. 7 Really, if they went to the ER and they said 8 somebody was not available, and we had a trained 9 staff and we did not act, we would hate to have 10 that come back on us. 11 MS. ELLIS: General training, though, would be 12 acceptable? 13 MR. BOURQUE: Correct, yes. You have to 14 actually, have a certified -- same (sic) 15 nurse that -- we have discussed it, but we've 16 decided not to go that route for those reasons. 17 MS. ELLIS: Are there any gay or transgender 18 staff on board? 19 CMDR. JETER: We don't ask those questions; 20 not that I'm aware of. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Commander, have you or 22 Maj. Hibbs had a heart-to-heart with the prosecutor 23 about, you know, the -- what the standards should 24 be, the thresholds should be for the sheriff's 25 office SVU unit referring stuff out of your jail 316 1 to -- for criminal prosecution? 2 CMDR. JETER: I have to say, I personally 3 haven't had a heart to talk -- heart-to-heart talk, 4 specifically, regarding those particular types of 5 charges. 6 We do try to get the state to pursue any of 7 the cases we refer up, aggressively, but not 8 specifically those cases. 9 MAJ. HIBBS: I haven't had any conversation 10 either. But whether it's a introduction of 11 contraband issue that the deputies would be 12 investigating to a battery on an inmate to sexual 13 battery, we try to prosecute all those charges as 14 well as escape, and so forth. 15 So, probably last year, there was at least 100 16 different type of report for different type of 17 crime violations within the institution we take 18 very seriously. 19 We want to charge those inmates, especially if 20 it's crime against staff or crimes against the 21 integrity of the institution. So we do do that. 22 But I haven't had any recent conversations with the 23 state attorney regarding sexual misconduct issues. 24 MR. MCFARLAND: What are the ways, besides 25 asking an officer for this inmate grievance form 317 1 and filling it out, are there any other ways, in 2 your institution, where -- by which an inmate could 3 report or allege a sexual assault? 4 CMDR. JETER: Absolutely. 5 MR. MCFARLAND: How is that? 6 CMDR. JETER: Well, they have numerous ways, 7 for instance, you just mentioned the grievance 8 form, the request form, as officers are walking 9 through, they can ask and be taken out to talk to 10 them, talk to the medical staff, talk to the 11 chaplain. 12 They can call up a family member if they -- we 13 have a phone inside the cell block, it's toll free, 14 to talk to the PDs. We have a -- 15 MR. MCFARLAND: The police departments? 16 CMDR. JETER: No. The public defender. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Oh. Is that -- 18 CMDR. JETER: We also have a -- a 1-800 crime 19 line number that can be reported in, they can mail 20 out a letter to family members, any -- that's just 21 an example. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: That's great. 23 MS. ELLIS: Yes, that is great. 24 MR. MCFARLAND: I believe I saw that your 25 visitation is by video; and how often can your 318 1 inmates communicate with visitors? 2 CMDR. JETER: We're not quite 24-7. But we're 3 pretty close to having visitation available almost 4 all day long, into -- well into the evening hours. 5 We encourage family visits. We believe that's 6 a very vital part of the process while people are 7 going through our judicial system. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: Commander, what would you do 9 now to better prevent sexual assault in your 10 facility based on what you've heard and thought 11 about? 12 CMDR. JETER: Well, you know, after I became 13 commander in 2005, it was a pretty much hit the 14 ground running, you know. 15 The first thing I did, went to NIC, the first 16 general administrator conference. And that's 17 actually where I first heard about PREA. And when 18 I came back, I grabbed the videos, came back and 19 said, "We need to develop a policy, and we need to 20 do it quickly." 21 So in 2006 we did that. And I thought we had 22 a very good policy in place. I think we do. Now, 23 since that time we did implement some other 24 training correction -- Crisis Intervention Training 25 that's unique to corrections, where I think we're 319 1 one of only two facilities in the State of Florida 2 that do this. 3 And it's actually the Memphis Model. I don't 4 know if you're aware of that type of training; also 5 24-hour mental health coverage, we've expanded 6 that. We had a special inmate needs committee 7 formed. We mentioned that yesterday. 8 Also, some H protocol R questions on the 9 intake form and the supervisor oversight, as well, 10 using their training and intuition to try to help 11 identify maybe some people at risk. Those are some 12 of the past things. 13 Now, since the survey, you know, I do a lot of 14 research, a lot more research, and looked at some 15 of the other facilities and what they used to model 16 their criteria after. So I gained a lot of 17 information, actually, from them. 18 So, with that in mind, I also reconnected with 19 NIC. We had our supervisors go through the online 20 PREA course which they say is two hours, but 21 actually it's more like six hours. But it's a good 22 program. 23 We also put up posters in the cell blocks, in 24 the hallways, to make everyone, staff and inmates, 25 aware that, you know, zero tolerance, to anything 320 1 of that nature. Again, we've still focused on CIT 2 training reform. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: "CIT" meaning? 4 CMDR. JETER: The Crisis Intervention 5 Training. 6 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. 7 CMDR. JETER: We formed a PREA committee. We 8 have a PREA coordinator now, Lt. Dodson. We also 9 have two PREA investigators, one male, one female. 10 In addition to that, we -- again within NIC, 11 we noticed the Moss Group will evaluate your PREA 12 policy. So we recently submitted that. We're 13 waiting for feedback. 14 We do random phone-call screenings, just to 15 see if we have any staff numbers come up. We run 16 those periodically to see if an inmate's contacting 17 a staff or officer. If those -- actually, we've 18 had that in place, I should say. So if an 19 officer's number or staff member's number comes up, 20 we do an investigation to find out why that's 21 happening. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: You review the outgoing calls; 23 is that what you -- 24 MAJ. HIBBS: Yes, sir. That's correct. 25 CMDR. JETER: Yes, sir. By the numbers, yes, 321 1 sir. We just -- 'cause you heard the video being 2 shown to the inmates, because the handbook law is 3 helpful. We knew we needed to augment that with 4 some more information. 5 And, of course, after this -- at the tour, 6 actually, you know, we saw some areas that we felt 7 we could probably add a couple of cameras. We're 8 open to doing that. 9 MR. MCFARLAND: Where would you want to put 10 some -- 11 CMDR. JETER: I think that warehouse was one, 12 actually. And the kitchen areas is being 13 renovated. Actually, we're getting an off-site 14 kitchen. There will be cameras in there. I think 15 that's important. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: How about any of the housing 17 units that don't have them currently? 18 CMDR. JETER: You know, that's going to be 19 difficult to do. The cost restraints to try to put 20 them in the cell -- individual cells, the problem 21 with that, additionally, is we -- in many -- not 22 that many years ago, but we had a high suicide 23 rate. 24 And we had a grates on the windows in the 25 cell, and the inmates would use that to tie off on 322 1 and hurt themselves. So we had to remove those 2 after the study from -- that we had brought in. 3 And I'm a little concerned with putting a camera in 4 there. 5 Also, I think the inmates would, I think, 6 block it quite frequently and not -- it just would 7 be pretty manpower intensive and then to have 8 someone watch the cameras itself, you know -- the 9 new housing area we build, as you saw, we are 10 incorporating cameras though. 11 MR. MCFARLAND: Do you work with any outside 12 sexual assault groups? 13 CMDR. JETER: No. I do -- I'm on the 14 commission, the Mental Health Community Solutions 15 Commission. I'm the vice chair. And, also, the 16 FCAC Team, that's just special needs for mentally 17 ill, the Corrections Advisory Counsel for the State 18 of Florida, the FCAC, I'm a commissioner on that. 19 So we are discussing PREA protocols, yes. 20 MS. ELLIS: Are you aware of the wide range of 21 victim assistance programs in Florida and how to 22 access those kinds of relationships? 23 CMDR. JETER: Actually, there's the Brevard 24 Women's Center that I looked up online, and I've 25 got their information. So we're looking down the 323 1 road with the PREA Committee to approach them. 2 MS. ELLIS: Florida has a vast array of victim 3 service assistance programs that would be of 4 tremendous help to you, particularly in adopting a 5 solid attitude towards sexual assault -- 6 CMDR. JETER: Yes, ma'am. 7 MS. ELLIS: -- a concerted effort and people 8 designated with the responsibility to respond to 9 those events in a certain way, in a certain 10 appropriate and acceptable way. 11 CMDR. JETER: I appreciate that. Yeah, I'm 12 doing quite a bit of research. 13 MS. ELLIS: Good. 14 MAJ. HIBBS: I can add just a little bit to 15 that. When myself and Commander and Lt. Dodson was 16 talking, we do have four full-time victim advocates 17 that work for the sheriff's office. They work for 18 the sex crimes unit and our domestic violence unit. 19 And they're in contact with all the local and state 20 resources available. And we were thinking, when we 21 do these reports, and so forth, even before the 22 inmate gets out, it'd be nice to have a contact 23 number for them whenever they get out, so when they 24 do re-entry in the community, some of those 25 services can be provided. And I think that's very 324 1 valuable. So I think we're going to do start that. 2 MS. ELLIS: That's good. 3 MR. MCFARLAND: How many of your inmates 4 are -- what percentage are pretrial detainees? 5 CMDR. JETER: Well, let me put it this way. 6 We have approximately 300 sentenced inmates. 7 MR. MCFARLAND: Okay. They can go up to how 8 many years or months? 9 CMDR. JETER: Anything under a year and a day. 10 MR. MCFARLAND: Now, how would I have run into 11 a couple of female inmates who said they had been 12 there for two and a half years? 13 CMDR. JETER: They could've done any number of 14 things. They could've been found incompetent, sent 15 up to the state hospital, brought back. And that's 16 just one example. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: Now, for those who are sent 18 out of your institution to prison or to another 19 correctional facility, what information goes with 20 them from your facility? 21 CMDR. JETER: That's good question. 22 They are sent a packet of their criminal 23 history, their charges, their in-house disciplinary 24 actions and their medical records and mental health 25 records. 325 1 MR. MCFARLAND: Would you -- would those 2 records include anything about allegations of 3 sexual victimization? 4 CMDR. JETER: You know -- you mind if I check 5 with Cpl. Foster? 6 CPL. FOSTER: Yes. 7 CMDR. JETER: I believe we do. 8 CPL. FOSTER: Yes, ma'am. When we do send the 9 -- (Inaudible) -- form, all the reports are 10 attached to the back of the second form along with 11 the criminal history. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Great. 13 MS. ELLIS: I just wanted to double check. 14 MR. MCFARLAND: Yeah. I appreciate that. 15 Do you have anything? 16 MS. ELLIS: No. 17 MR. MCFARLAND: What are the programs you have 18 available? If you GED, you have the culinary arts. 19 CMDR. JETER: We have a wide variety. We have 20 Bikes for Tykes, where we get bikes turned, and we 21 refurbish them and take them to the sharing center, 22 so anyone that needs a bike for their child, even 23 adult, just shows their driver's license and they 24 get a bike for free. 25 MR. MCFARLAND: You've got the dog training. 326 1 CMDR. JETER: We have the Paws & Stripe 2 Training Program, which is an excellent program. 3 We get dogs from the shelters that were deemed not 4 adoptable, and we give them basic obedience 5 training. 6 They get a little certificate. The inmates 7 who participate receive training in pet CPR, basic 8 job handling -- dog-handling skill training. They 9 get a certificate, as well, that actually can get 10 them employed at a vet tech position at beginning 11 entry level. 12 MR. MCFARLAND: Any vocational training other 13 than culinary? I realize that the average stay is, 14 what, 28 days? 15 CMDR. JETER: Twenty-eight, 29, just 16 fluctuate. 17 But we also have a horticultural program. We 18 have so many programs, I've lost track of -- 19 MAJ. HIBBS: Sewing program. 20 CMDR. JETER: Sewing program. 21 MR. MCFARLAND: Horticultural program. 22 CMDR. JETER: Out at the farm; if you didn't 23 get an opportunity to see that, that is for people 24 that do not spend an overnight stay. They come in 25 and they go home. 327 1 MS. ELLIS: What about restorative justice 2 programs, impact of crime, bringing in victims to 3 tell their stories and have them -- as they go 4 through a -- 5 CMDR. JETER: Yeah. I'm sorry. The domestic 6 violence program. We also have individual that has 7 a program called "Reality Check" that we would like 8 to bring on board. He tells people, especially 9 youthful offenders, what prison is like. And 10 they've very good individual, very pleased. 11 We also have a motivational and inspirational 12 educational programs that the chaplain provides to 13 our inmates as well. 14 We do testing. We give the inmates the 15 ability to get their licenses back, if they go 16 through the program. Because we think that's key. 17 You don't want to put someone on the street, and 18 they don't have a driver's license to get to a job. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: I saw there was some mattress 20 manufacturing going on. 21 CMDR. JETER: That's augmented from our 22 uniform selling program, now. So we started making 23 our mattresses. As you heard earlier, uniforms 24 were scarce and expensive to buy them on the 25 outside. We were spending literally 60- to $70,000 328 1 a year just on uniforms. So now we've dropped. I 2 think 20- to $24,000 a year now. And we're making 3 them on our own. 4 MR. MCFARLAND: And who makes the uniforms, 5 the male or the females or both? 6 CMDR. JETER: Females do the uniforms, and the 7 males make the mattresses. 8 MR. MCFARLAND: I see. All right. Other than 9 that, those programs, are there any other 10 gender-specific programs? 11 MAJ. HIBBS: Well, we have a Moms Program. 12 That's Mothers on Meth. And we have Dads Program, 13 Dads on Drugs, NA, AA. We have group counseling 14 through the mental health unit. Especially around 15 the holidays, we think that is very important. 16 MR. MCFARLAND: Both those are open to male 17 and females? 18 CMDR. JETER: Yes, sir. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: The NA and AA? 20 CMDR. JETER: Bible study. 21 MS. ELLIS: I think we're done. 22 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, Cmdr. Jeter and 23 Maj. Hibbs, we want to thank you very much, both, 24 for all the time you spent -- and Lt. Dodson -- 25 yesterday with us. You spent over four and a half 329 1 hours in your facility. Thank you very much. Made -- 2 been a long day for Maj. Hibbs. 3 This has been another a long day and we 4 probably have a few other things, you know, you 5 could've done today. So we greatly appreciate your 6 willingness to provide these documents, provide the 7 testimony. 8 Thanks for putting up with some vigorous 9 questioning. I appreciate that. And if you could 10 provide the follow-up documents, Mr. Siedlecki will 11 maybe interface with you, Major. 12 MAJ. HIBBS: Absolutely. 13 MR. MCFARLAND: There aren't too many of them, 14 but I think you know what we're looking for. 15 So, Ms. Ellis, do you have anything? 16 MS. ELLIS: I'd just join the chair in 17 thanking you for your cooperation and your 18 patience. Thank you very much. 19 MR. MCFARLAND: Well, we'll stand adjourned. 20 Thank you. 21 MS. ELLIS: Thank you very much. 22 (WHEREUPON, at 4:51 the proceedings were 23 adjourned.) 24 * * * 25 330 1 COURT REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF FLORIDA : 3 : COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH : 4 5 I, ELIDA T. HAGER, Registered Professional 6 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of 7 Florida, 8 DO HEREBY CERTIFY that I was present at the 9 proceedings at the time and place set forth in the 10 caption thereof; and I was authorized to and did 11 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings; and 12 that the foregoing pages constitute a true and complete 13 computer-aided transcription of my original stenographic 14 notes to the best of my knowledge, skill and ability. 15 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my 16 hand at Tampa, Hillsborough County, this 20th day of 17 October 2008. 18 19 20 ________________________________ ELIDA T. HAGER, R.P.R. 21 Notary Public State of Florida 22 My Commission Expires 1/7/2012 Commission No. DD744018 23 24 25